86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
- jbeall
- Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:22 am
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- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
Good comparison, indeed. In all these cases (including "Nevsky" and even more in the operatic "Ivan") there is indeed this unison of images, text and especially music that Powell dreamt of as 'total' art. I would add Greenaway's "Prospero's Books" as a further example, and it's significant that PG repeatedly stated that Eisenstein was one of the very film directors he accepts because he made films that were 'films' and not just 'illustrated text'. The marriage of music, visuals, text is of course a concept that may have been taken over by music videos (if only a few of them,but there ARE successful examples, or have been, rather), and if indeed Eisenstein 'invented' the music video, it only shows the modernity of his film-making. The same point has been made, btw, for Riefenstahl's "Triumph", with Hitler as a pop star avant la lettre. No wonder David Bowie apparently was/is a big fan of that film, as was Mick Jagger.tryavna wrote: Just because E. married his images to P's music reduces it to the level of a music video? (At least, I think David means that in a derogatory way.) Would you also claim that Powell's efforts with Brian Easdale in Black Narcissus and The Red Shoes are similarly "music-video-ish"?.
Of course all these films may be reproached as 'totalitarian', 'cold', 'statuesque', or at least placing form over content, but in my view this is not a valid criticism once we're talking about the films themselves. It may be valid if we see the films as an expression of certain wider cultural phenomena, but then we're talking sociology and politics, not film.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
I'm in the same minority of those indifferent to Nevsky, by a large margin my least favourite Eisenstein (even including the fragmentary ones). I don't object to it on ideological grounds, because, frankly, few Soviet films of the era can dodge that particular bullet, but because I find the pageantry stiff (really only taking flight briefly in the battle scenes - a lot of the scenes work much better as stills than on the screen, in my opinion), and the cliched 'socialist realism' characterisations tooth-achingly awful. Soviet films of the 30s and 40s are full of these lumbering, folksy types, and I find Eisenstein's treatment of them completely standard: leadenly 'humorous' or lugubriously sentimental. It's a very awkward midway ground between the montaged 'non-performance' of his silent films and the ultra-stylisation of performance(definitely an acquired taste, but one I find quite in tune with the material and presentation) of the Ivans.
Nevsky was actually the first Eisenstein I saw, and I was greatly impressed, but it's sharply declined in interest for me as I've seen Eisenstein's other work and the socialist realism 'classics' from which it takes too many cues.
Nevsky was actually the first Eisenstein I saw, and I was greatly impressed, but it's sharply declined in interest for me as I've seen Eisenstein's other work and the socialist realism 'classics' from which it takes too many cues.
- colinr0380
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- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk about the design of Nevsky. It's the second element I'm in love with. The exaggerations of the costumes and sets held my interest more so then the story which I felt was meh. I suppose the old saying about the score could be said of the whole film. It's a wonderfully put together film, that also is a terrible film.
Everyone talks about the ice battle with as this grand thing, and I accept and understand its importance, it is mostly a dull monotonous affair once things begin. The only reason I'd give it leeway when Bernard and Lang were making much better fight scenes at the same time is because of the situation they were in. The scenes surrounding the battle were more interesting for me, especially the silent moments and most of the stuff involving the Germans who were made to be absolutely frightening.
But going back to why I'm making this post I have to say the look of the film, from the towering castles and war armour to the peasants clothes and barren ground was almost as amazing to me as the score and I would like to hear what others have to say about this unspoken of aspect to the film.
Everyone talks about the ice battle with as this grand thing, and I accept and understand its importance, it is mostly a dull monotonous affair once things begin. The only reason I'd give it leeway when Bernard and Lang were making much better fight scenes at the same time is because of the situation they were in. The scenes surrounding the battle were more interesting for me, especially the silent moments and most of the stuff involving the Germans who were made to be absolutely frightening.
But going back to why I'm making this post I have to say the look of the film, from the towering castles and war armour to the peasants clothes and barren ground was almost as amazing to me as the score and I would like to hear what others have to say about this unspoken of aspect to the film.
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- Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:58 am
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
I absolutely adore the three films in this set, and was so looking forward to buying it. They are among my favourite films. However, with all this talk about the poor soundtrack quality on Nevsky - wrong source used/only a rehearsal track, etc, etc. now I'm not so sure. Is the sound really as bad as some/many have suggested? If so, do Criterion plan to rectify this problem? This is so unlike Criterion's usual impeccable high standards, especially for a film as important as Nevsky.
Any info/feedback much appreciated
Thanks in Advance.
Any info/feedback much appreciated
Thanks in Advance.
- Tribe
- The Bastard Spawn of Hank Williams
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Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
This was one of Criterion's earlier releases...I doubt it would have been released in the main Criterion line today. Be that as it may, your mileage may vary depending on how much of a stickler you may be. That soundtrack does sound pretty bad and if you can find an alternative that sounds better (I'm not sure if there is one out there...if there is someone here ought to know about it) you might want to go that route.Bennie wrote:I absolutely adore the three films in this set, and was so looking forward to buying it. They are among my favourite films. However, with all this talk about the poor soundtrack quality on Nevsky - wrong source used/only a rehearsal track, etc, etc. now I'm not so sure. Is the sound really as bad as some/many have suggested? If so, do Criterion plan to rectify this problem? This is so unlike Criterion's usual impeccable high standards, especially for a film as important as Nevsky.
- Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
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Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
Unfortunately, the original soundtrack for Alexander Nevsky (though brilliantly written) was very poorly recorded. The only thing one could do is strip out the dialog somehow and fit this into a newly recorded performance of Prokofiev's score. (And there is NO way to reconstruct the missing reel from the middle of the film).
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
Someone else is bound to know more about this than me, but the Nevsky soundtrack has always been a big problem, centring on the poorly recorded, hastily rehearsed score. I think there may have been some later work done in Russia to 'fix' the soundtrack which didn't exactly help and compromised the (already compromised) original, and I think that version is the one Criterion issued. As far as I know it's the only version in circulation, so what do you expect?
I don't think there are any alternatives available on DVD, but if anybody knows otherwise, let us know. In the meantime, I believe the Criterion set is as good as it gets. I'd also add that this set has a fantastic set of extras for such an early release, particularly the Bezhin Meadow reconstruction and the superb visual essay on Ivan.
I don't think there are any alternatives available on DVD, but if anybody knows otherwise, let us know. In the meantime, I believe the Criterion set is as good as it gets. I'd also add that this set has a fantastic set of extras for such an early release, particularly the Bezhin Meadow reconstruction and the superb visual essay on Ivan.
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- Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:31 am
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Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
That's exactly what was done in 1994 with the St Petersberg Philharmonic conducted by Yuri Temirkanov. The soundtrack was released on CD by RCA, who also published it on VHS (at least in the UK). I don't think this version has been released on DVD but it has been shown on UK digital channels in recent years. Of course, being in stereo it doesn't sound remotely authentic and all the main titles were remade. I think the overall result pleased music lovers more than film fans!Michael Kerpan wrote: The only thing one could do is strip out the dialog somehow and fit this into a newly recorded performance of Prokofiev's score.
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Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
I'd step up to bat for the NEVSKY soundtrack as it currently exists on the Criterion. You want a "newly recorded" version? Then what you'll end up getting is harsh, digital "high-definition fidelity" which is better suited to the production of a Celine Dion record, no matter the fidelity of adherence to the original score. Think of these quote-unquote poorly recorded pre-restoration silent soundtracks as being the only existing elements that actually have any equivalent of film-grain-structure. What's happened in silent film soundtracking over the last decade+ is shameful. The majordomos of 'restored soundtrack' productions/recordings have no production/recording sensibility whatsoever.
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
While I totally agree with what you say about 'Nevsky' - I also think that it should stand as it is, after all it's a historical artifact, and the bad sound even heightens the experience for me -, I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'what's happened in silent film soundtracking'. Do you have a re-mastering of some old Movietone scores in mind? Or do you refer to newly recorded music? If the latter, then I can't see where the problem should be. If you have a truly high quality recording of a silent score, you will probably have a far closer approximation of what it sounded like in the cinemas in the 20s in a live performance. Let's take the newly recorded Erdmann score for "Nosferatu" as an example: it sounds gorgeous in every respect, and it really gave me the feeling of sitting in a cinema with the orchestra accompanying the film. On the other hand, "Nevsky" probably wouldn't have sounded so much better in 1938 than today, given the technical resources available at the time. That some record companies today misuse the digital medium and get crappy sound from overcompression etc. is deplorable, but I seldom came across it with silent film soundtracks, only with commercial cds (one of the reasons why fewer and fewer people buy cds, in my view).evillights wrote: What's happened in silent film soundtracking over the last decade+ is shameful. The majordomos of 'restored soundtrack' productions/recordings have no production/recording sensibility whatsoever.
- Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
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Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
According to what I have read, contemporaries (who were supporters of the film) were quite disturbed by the low technical quality of the recorded score -- but it didn't matter because it _didn't_ bother Stalin.
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- Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:58 am
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
Many thanks for all your feedback everybody. Its very disappointing to hear that the Nevsky soundtrack is so poor, but as there doesn't seem to be any better alternatives out there, I may just pick this set up after all. Several sources though (including DVDBeaver) have said that this is just a "rehearsal track". So what happened to the REAL soundtrack? Has it been lost? I'm also concerned that if I shell out for this set now, Criterion may decide to re-release it in the near future with a much better score, maybe by, as Micheal Kerpan says, stripping out the dialog somehow and fit this into a newly recorded performance of Prokofiev's score.
- NilbogSavant
- Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:15 am
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
The Laserdisc release has a great stereo soundtrack.
- jsteffe
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:00 am
- Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
I'd like to point out that the version of Alexander Nevsky used for the Criterion DVD is the 1986 Mosfilm restoration, which included rerecording some of the music. The credits for this (in Russian) are at the end of the film. The two Ivan the Terrible prints on the Criterion set also include some rerecorded music, if I'm not mistaken.
If you really want the "unrestored" soundtracks, your best bet is to get the Corinth/Image Entertainment versions of the same films. These are based on prints of the original versions that were struck in the early 1980s and have burnt-in subtitles. I personally prefer the restored Criterion versions because of their much superior image quality, but for historical purposes I'm glad that Corinth has also released the older prints on DVD.
If you really want the "unrestored" soundtracks, your best bet is to get the Corinth/Image Entertainment versions of the same films. These are based on prints of the original versions that were struck in the early 1980s and have burnt-in subtitles. I personally prefer the restored Criterion versions because of their much superior image quality, but for historical purposes I'm glad that Corinth has also released the older prints on DVD.
- Doctor Sunshine
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:04 pm
- Location: Brain Jail
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
There is no "real" soundtrack. Stalin saw the film with the rehearsal track and gave it his seal of approval. And in Stalinist Russia, if you somehow got that, you called it a day, you're done. The story's covered in the disc's supplements. Also, I wouldn't worry about these getting reissued. Rublev would come before anything in this set and we've been waiting for that six plus years now. A lot of red tape involved in licensing these Soviet films, apparently. It's an amazing set, regardless.Bennie wrote:So what happened to the REAL soundtrack?
- Matango
- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Hong Kong
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
Yes it has. RCA Victor/BMG put out the Alexander Nevsky laserdisc in 1994, with the original Prokofiev score reconstructed and re-recorded in stereo by the St Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra and some Russian choirs. I think they also put out a CD at the same time, so if you could get hold of that, it would sort of solve the problem if you could synch them up properly. The laserdisc came with a free Alexander Nevsky baseball cap, too. Quite what the target market was for that, I cannot easily imagine.NilbogSavant wrote:The Laserdisc release has a great stereo soundtrack.
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- Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:39 pm
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Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
Nor can I, but what a wonderfully daft idea.Matango wrote:Quite what the target market was for that, I cannot easily imagine.
Almost on a par with that line of Harley Davidson cake mixes a few year ago...
- jsteffe
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:00 am
- Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
For the curious, you can still get that laserdisc on Ebay. The new recording of the score is very good--too bad they never released it on DVD. Just don't confuse that laserdisc with the Image Entertainment laserdisc, which is the same transfer as the Image/Corinth DVD I mentioned.Matango wrote:Yes it has. RCA Victor/BMG put out the Alexander Nevsky laserdisc in 1994, with the original Prokofiev score reconstructed and re-recorded in stereo by the St Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra and some Russian choirs. I think they also put out a CD at the same time, so if you could get hold of that, it would sort of solve the problem if you could synch them up properly. The laserdisc came with a free Alexander Nevsky baseball cap, too. Quite what the target market was for that, I cannot easily imagine.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
Well, it looks pretty fucking cool with my Meshes of the Afternoon fanny pack.Matango wrote:The laserdisc came with a free Alexander Nevsky baseball cap, too. Quite what the target market was for that, I cannot easily imagine.
- whaleallright
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:56 am
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
If only it came with the hat seen on the right:
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- Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:58 am
Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
I just want to say many thanks to everyone who advised me regarding this set. I got it recently and am very happy I did! I have only seen 'Nevsky' so far, and while the sound isn't perfect, it isn't anywhere near as much of an issue as I thought it would be. And the picture is such a VAST improvement over any versions I've seen previously! Great, GREAT set! Thank you all so much for recommending it.
- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Ivan the Terrible (Eisenstein, 1944, 1958)
DISCUSSION ENDS MONDAY, NOVEMBER 24th AT 6:30 AM.
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Members have a two week period in which to discuss the film before it's moved to its dedicated thread in The Criterion Collection subforum. Please read the Rules and Procedures.
This thread is not spoiler free. This is a discussion thread; you should expect plot points of the individual films under discussion to be discussed openly. See: spoiler rules.
DISCUSSION QUESTIONS
I encourage members to submit questions, either those designed to elicit discussion and point out interesting things to keep an eye on, or just something you want answered. This will be extremely helpful in getting discussion started. Starting is always the hardest part, all the more so if it's unguided. Questions can be submitted to me via PM.
***PM me if you have any suggestions for additions or just general concerns and questions.***
- martin
- Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:16 am
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Re: 86-88 Eisenstein: The Sound Years
Cinemateket, Copenhagen, have just announced they will screen Mosfilm's newly restored version in December 2014. It'll be a world premiere according to their magazine and their webpage (Danish text). I'm going.
Weird how this was announced exactly when Ivan the Terrible was chosen for discussion in the Criterion Film Club.
Weird how this was announced exactly when Ivan the Terrible was chosen for discussion in the Criterion Film Club.