Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

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A man stayed-put
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#76 Post by A man stayed-put » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:51 pm

I fail to see how the final line of your post has anything to do with the rest of your position. And frankly, it does read as a bit defensive of Bertolucci's actions in the name of auteur-ism.
Then you've completely missed the point I was making.
My point was to question the licence that 'auteurism' allows filmmakers. I'm not defending Bertolucci, I'm suggesting that he is not alone in these methods and if the focus remains on him being an outlier no good can come of the conversation, given that the wronged party in this instance passed away some time ago and was largely ignored when she raised it.
I've basically just slightly re-worded my previous post, so this may be wasted energy.

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domino harvey
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#77 Post by domino harvey » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:53 pm

Soothsayer wrote:Reading the posts regarding this scene in the earlier part of this thread is nothing less than pathetic. Several people in this thread should have been ashamed of themselves when they posted it, and should be ashamed of themselves now.
Do not ascribe "correct" levels of outrage to others, and do not wave your bell septa-style and call out shame. In the wake of these revelations, no one here has defended Bertolucci's behavior (this is still true even if you feel their objections should be stronger)

Soothsayer
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#78 Post by Soothsayer » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:00 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Soothsayer wrote:Reading the posts regarding this scene in the earlier part of this thread is nothing less than pathetic. Several people in this thread should have been ashamed of themselves when they posted it, and should be ashamed of themselves now.
Do not ascribe "correct" levels of outrage to others, and do not wave your bell septa-style and call out shame
Seeing as you put scare quotes around "correct", I'd like to point out that I never used the word. As well, trying to call out my post as the questionable one in this thread is horrifying.

I'm not the only person in this thread who's pointed out what I find to be a disgusting reaction to that scene, the pain it caused Schneider, and to the discovery of Bertolucci and Brando's culpability in it.

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domino harvey
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#79 Post by domino harvey » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:05 pm

You are the one telling others they should be ashamed to not express their disapproval in a fashion you deem fit. Again, in light of this confirmation, no one has defended Bertolucci's behavior, and some are trying to use this as more than just an outrage instigator to examine larger institutional issues relating to power and how women are treated in the film system.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#80 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:07 pm

Soothsayer wrote:I fail to see how the final line of your post has anything to do with the rest of your position. And frankly, it does read as a bit defensive of Bertolucci's actions in the name of auteur-ism.
It doesn't have to read as defensive. One can easily read it as a lament for:

1. how what it takes to get attention and outrage is not the claims of the victim, but the confession of the perpetrator, and how this seems to enact the oft-criticized silencing of the oppressed/victimized.

2. how people have shown up in droves now that shaming and outrage are possible, but did not when support was needed--and as a result this all seems impotent and in bad faith.

This is how I read his point, and I think it has a lot of truth to it.
Soothsayer wrote:Seeing as you put scare quotes around "correct", I'd like to point out that I never used the word. As well, trying to call out my post as the questionable one in this thread is horrifying.
You said that the responses in this thread are "pathetic" and bring shame to those who wrote them. Does that not mean you think the responses are not correct? Or do you feel a response can both be correct and make the sayer a rightful object of shame in your own eyes?

Soothsayer
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#81 Post by Soothsayer » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:07 pm

A man stayed-put wrote:
I fail to see how the final line of your post has anything to do with the rest of your position. And frankly, it does read as a bit defensive of Bertolucci's actions in the name of auteur-ism.
Then you've completely missed the point I was making.
My point was to question the licence that 'auteurism' allows filmmakers. I'm not defending Bertolucci, I'm suggesting that he is not alone in these methods and if the focus remains on him being an outlier no good can come of the conversation, given that the wronged party in this instance passed away some time ago and was largely ignored when she raised it.
I've basically just slightly re-worded my previous post, so this may be wasted energy.
In that post, you're literally comparing actions that aren't classified as sexual assault, to sexual assault. I find comparing these as a way to find the limits of the acceptability for auteur-ism to be a mistake.

I agree that it's unfortunate that this issue was not discussed with proper depth and seriousness when Schneider first gave the interview. I'm guilty myself, as I've never been a fan of this film and didn't care to read too deeply into it, so I was unaware of Schneider's previous interview on the matter. However, it is being discussed now, which imo is what really matters. Someone earlier pointed out that there seems to be more attention in the media paid to sexual assault and the lack of actions taken about them. I tend to think this has an influence, and one I'm happy to see.

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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#82 Post by Soothsayer » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:14 pm

Mr Sausage wrote:
Soothsayer wrote:Seeing as you put scare quotes around "correct", I'd like to point out that I never used the word. As well, trying to call out my post as the questionable one in this thread is horrifying.
You said that the responses in this thread are "pathetic" and bring shame to those who wrote them. Does that not mean you think the responses are not correct? Or do you feel a response can both be correct and make the sayer a rightful object of shame in your own eyes?
To put it simply, I do think it's shameful to belittle someone after they have publicly claimed their agency was taken away from them, on camera, in the form of sexual assault. This is what Maria Schneider claimed happened, and Bertolucci later confirmed. Look at several of the posts which came after Barmy's post on the first page which quoted the Maria Schneider interview. The first one tried to chide her for even talking about it. That is shameful, full-stop. To use the semantics of the word "correct" as an argument against my thoughts on this matter is baffling to me...

I don't feel the worth in defending myself or expanding on why I feel this way. I'm not forcing anyone to agree or disagree with me, words can't do that.

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movielocke
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#83 Post by movielocke » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:17 pm

Feego wrote:
George Kaplan wrote:I was prepared to also suggest the famous account of Minnelli's direction of Margaret O'Brien in the snow-man scene in MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS but, by chance, happened to have just caught a TCM Christmas movie documentary in which O'Brien says that the account is untrue, and that she had not been told that her dog had been killed in order to produce the required amount of tears but, in fact, was in competition with June Allyson to be the best crier on the MGM lot. So, scratch that.
The dead-dog story was used, however, to get Jackie Cooper to cry during production of Skippy (1932). Director Norman Taurog, who was Cooper's uncle by marriage, apparently took Cooper's dog outside and fired a gun, leading the young actor to believe that his dog had been shot dead. He then cried satisfactorily for the scene being filmed and was later reunited with the dog. There could probably be pages written about the abuses many child actors suffered in Hollywood during the 1920 and 30s, including Judy Garland being hopped up on uppers in the morning and given downers at night so that she could work long hours.
i attended a screening of skippy where cooper said in a q and a afterwords the taurog version of the story wasn't true. A gun wasn't fired, his dog was taken away and he was told the dog had been killed, but he then saw his dog playing before the scene was filmed. The dog thing didn't influence nor create his performance, that was just taurog taking credit for it.

calculus entrophy
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#84 Post by calculus entrophy » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:20 pm

Mr Sausage wrote:
1. how what it takes to get attention and outrage is not the claims of the victim, but the confession of the perpetrator, and how this seems to enact the oft-criticized silencing of the oppressed/victimized.

2. how people have shown up in droves now that shaming and outrage are possible, but did not when support was needed--and as a result this all seems impotent and in bad faith.

This is how I read his point, and I think it has a lot of truth to it.
This is a really well-worded summary.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#85 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:20 pm

Soothsayer wrote:
Mr Sausage wrote:
Soothsayer wrote:Seeing as you put scare quotes around "correct", I'd like to point out that I never used the word. As well, trying to call out my post as the questionable one in this thread is horrifying.
You said that the responses in this thread are "pathetic" and bring shame to those who wrote them. Does that not mean you think the responses are not correct? Or do you feel a response can both be correct and make the sayer a rightful object of shame in your own eyes?
To put it simply, I do think it's shameful to belittle someone after they have publicly claimed their agency was taken away from them, on camera, in the form of sexual assault. This is what Maria Schneider claimed happened, and Bertolucci later confirmed. Look at several of the posts which came after Barmy's post on the first page which quoted the Maria Schneider interview. The first one tried to chide her for even talking about it. That is shameful, full-stop. To use the semantics of the word "correct" as an argument against my thoughts on this matter is baffling to me...

I don't feel the worth in defending myself or expanding on why I feel this way. I'm not forcing anyone to agree or disagree with me, words can't do that.
You did not specify which posts in this thread you were referring to, so I'm pretty sure most who read your post came to the same conclusion I did: that you were referring to the most recent discussion of the matter. That you did nothing to distinguish the early posts you now cite from the later one you took direct issue with is suspicious.

What's baffling to me is why you keep refusing the word "correct" even though you must believe that some responses are correct are some are not. Do you simply object to how it sounds when your attitude is described flatly and without the adornments of rhetoric and phrasing?

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A man stayed-put
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#86 Post by A man stayed-put » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:26 pm

Soothsayer wrote:In that post, you're literally comparing actions that aren't classified as sexual assault, to sexual assault. I find comparing these as a way to find the limits of the acceptability for auteur-ism to be a mistake.
I was comparing other actions that could be classified as assault.

If you think it's a mistake to discuss how this is possibly not the only time someone has been assaulted/coerced/misled for effect on a film set and what this says about certain film making attitudes/techniques then fine, don't engage in the discussion.
If you must I would appreciate it though if you would at least take the time to read what's being discussed rather than erroneously claiming that people are defending those involved.

Anyway Domino and Mr Sausage have already clarified my point far better than I've managed, so I'll leave it there.

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perkizitore
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#87 Post by perkizitore » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:19 pm

Bertolucci's response
based on previous statements i had the impression she was notified of the scene content only that morning!

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gcgiles1dollarbin
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#88 Post by gcgiles1dollarbin » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:13 pm

After having read that, I guess we now have an opportunity to either believe the victim or the alleged perpetrator. Clearly, they disagree with one another. I'm going to bet that everyone currently on this forum backs Schneider--that we are all just arguing fine points, not the basic problem, as domino reminds us--because I trust you all.

Maybe one explanation for Soothsayer's rage is the fact that he or she is reaching back in this thread to 2007, the actual year of Schneider's interview, when the following lovely comment followed Barmy's link:
Will she never shut up about this? I am seriously beginning to query her sanity. She manages to exploit her own supposed exploitation. :shock:
In my mind, this is classic rape culture minimizing: "My God, when will this woman stop whining about the time Marlon Brando sexually assaulted her ass with a stick of butter!" This comment is followed by tasteless jokes that I won't quote, but it's pretty clear that criterionforum.org failed the sensitivity-to-sexual-assault test at least ten years ago.

We have to spend far more time trusting, believing victims of sexual assault, right? Schneider said, "I should have called my agent or had my lawyer come to the set because you can’t force someone to do something that isn’t in the script, but at the time, I didn’t know that. Marlon said to me: ‘Maria, don’t worry, it’s just a movie.’" She also said, "I felt humiliated and to be honest, I felt a little raped, both by Marlon and by Bertolucci." This is unambiguously sexual assault, which, last time I checked, is a felony, as well as being a moral outrage and a crime constantly underreported in this country because we dismiss claims too often. Maybe no one got into a huff ten years ago on this forum because it would have seemed to run against the grain of the more dominant, jocular attitude toward the incident. Again, that's text-book rape culture stuff, not just me sermonizing.

And before we start banking our arguments on the penetration-or-not mitigation factor, imagine someone saying, "Trump ain't that bad, because he didn't say, 'Put your hand in her pussy'; he just said 'Grab her by the pussy.' No penetration, see?" It's ridiculously evasive. Sexual assault is sexual assault, even if it isn't legally rape.

Having said all this, I repeat: I don't think a single person on this forum would disagree with the fact that Brando and Bertolucci sexually assaulted Schneider with impunity. We know and trust how people stand here on these issues. Yet if all I had to judge were the comments following Barmy's link ten years back, I wouldn't be so sure.

I do think Soothsayer should indicate precisely whom he or she has a problem with, be more specific, quote examples, avoid sweeping rage rhetoric, etc. Mr. Sausage is trying to pin things down admirably, which is the care people must take when they discuss inflammatory issues like these. Otherwise, we're just going to melt into a gooey mass of defensiveness and nothing will be accomplished or learned.

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Swift
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#89 Post by Swift » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:43 pm

Mr Sausage wrote: You did not specify which posts in this thread you were referring to, so I'm pretty sure most who read your post came to the same conclusion I did: that you were referring to the most recent discussion of the matter. That you did nothing to distinguish the early posts you now cite from the later one you took direct issue with is suspicious.
The poster can stand up for themselves but he/she did specify the posts referred to...
Reading the posts regarding this scene in the earlier part of this thread is nothing less than pathetic. Several people in this thread should have been ashamed of themselves when they posted it, and should be ashamed of themselves now.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#90 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:30 pm

"Earlier part of this thread" reads differently now after the explanation. It ought to've been stated less ambiguously given the context and the emotions involved. But I will give the poster credit: he did try to say he was talking about posts from several years ago.

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furbicide
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#91 Post by furbicide » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:29 am

Given all this, what are the viewer's ethical obligations, do you think? Should the film even be available without the scene excised? That may sound like an extreme question, but if the BBFC does it for animal cruelty...

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dda1996a
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#92 Post by dda1996a » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:06 am

Well considering Storaro also echoed Bertolucci's claims maybe they are telling the truth? I guess we will never really know but maybe, everything except the butter was written in the script?

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hearthesilence
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#93 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:47 pm

I'm seeing some people claim that she was actually penetrated, but I'm having trouble finding where this has been stated or accurately suggested by Schneider or anyone else who was actually there. I was always under the impression that what she went through was terrible enough, but there's a grapevine effect going on here that's distorting what actually happened.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#94 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:54 pm

Having your anus touched and penetrated are not too far off from one another when you didn't consent to it happening

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dda1996a
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#95 Post by dda1996a » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:57 pm

Well I'm vehemently against it, but there is indeed a difference. But no one ever said, including Schneider, that she was penetrated.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#96 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:02 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:Having your anus touched and penetrated are not too far off from one another when you didn't consent to it happening
I didn't see a reliable account that mentioned that kind of touching either - did this come from Schneider? Where was this? There was another post that mentioned that Brando actually applied the butter to Schneider's behind, but I can find no reliable source for this either.

Honestly, I have no interest in digging up what could be pornographic details of how a woman was abused, but imaginations are running out of control, in a way that makes a very significant difference.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#97 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:49 pm

The fact remains that someone employed to do a job should be told what is going to happen to their body before they happen - not some of the time, all of the time.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#98 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:52 pm

That's for damn sure, would never dispute that.

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Brian C
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#99 Post by Brian C » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:08 pm

I don't think anyone else is disputing it either.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#100 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:11 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:The fact remains that someone employed to do a job should be told what is going to happen to their body before they happen - not some of the time, all of the time.
No one here has come close to saying otherwise.

Countering rumour and hysteria with facts and information is precisely how to respond to this.

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