Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
I don't dare entertain a hope. I think it's just a glitch/default.
- reno dakota
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:30 am
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
Nor do I, as the Mulvaney e-mail clarified that the Sirk film will be 2:1 and the Stahl film 1.33:1.HerrSchreck wrote:I don't dare entertain a hope. I think it's just a glitch/default.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Here's my gasoline for the fire
Well, now that I've seen Magnificent Obsession in the 2.0:1 ratio, I guess I can stop dealing in the hypothetical and make an honest evaluation of the reality. The truth is, 2.0 doesn't look horrible. Everyone is in frame and the necessary information is gleaned by the viewer. But there's something "off" about the framing and it took me about thirty minutes into the viewing to realize what it was. The film at 2.0 ironically resembles full-frame TV blocking from the era the film was produced. Everything you "need" on the screen is there, but it's presented without artistry, without attention paid to anything but functionality. And watching it after a night of Sirk that ran the gamut from Has Anybody Seen My Gal? to the Tarnished Angels, the pedestrian visual composure offered here in 2.0 was an anomaly impossible to ignore.
- carax09
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:22 am
- Location: This almost empty gin palace
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
Good post, Domino. Despite some of the earlier histrionics, if there ever was a thread I wish Lee Kline would read through, it's this one.
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- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:01 pm
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
The DVD Beaver now has screen caps posted for the Criterion MO - there is not one cropped head, not one shot doesn't look perfectly framed and none of his caps look remotely like anything posted here, which leads one to think that maybe the other widescreen DVDs were taken from a zoomed in print. I'm looking forward to seeing the DVD very soon.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
I may be wrong about this, but I don't believe it's Gary's practice to post screen caps from every single frame of a film.billy feldman wrote:there is not one cropped head, not one shot doesn't look perfectly framed and none of his caps look remotely like anything posted here
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
Billy, that's lazy thinking. How could you allow your mind to go there, without a voice saying "wait-- rather than compare frames that don't correspond to each other, maybe I should wait to see frame specific comparisons between the CC and other widescreen editions."billy feldman wrote:The DVD Beaver now has screen caps posted for the Criterion MO - there is not one cropped head, not one shot doesn't look perfectly framed and none of his caps look remotely like anything posted here, which leads one to think that maybe the other widescreen DVDs were taken from a zoomed in print. I'm looking forward to seeing the DVD very soon.
And nobody is really going to end up seeing any abominable scenes/framing. Metty and Sirk made the film work in both versions, so that audience members who went into either version wouldn't feel like anything was amiss.
- Gregory
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
Oh great, we have a new member. Billy feldman, remember, is the person at Home Theater Forum who engaged in relentless trash-talking about our forum. The stupidity on our forum is frightening. We're a bunch of amateurs who claim to be "experts," he says. And we have the nerve to try to interpret what Sirk was doing artistically even though we can't get inside his head. Sirk was a HIRED HAND, billy feldman says, and Metty was a HIRED HAND, and apparently all directors within the studio system were all HIRED HANDS, HIRED HANDS, HIRED HANDS (all caps retained from original) and so they all just churned the stuff out one after the other to meet the insatiable need for new films, and they never went beyond the needs and desires of their employers in any way. Simple as that.
Anyway so glad he wanted to come aboard nonetheless. See also his wonderful contributions at Dave Kehr's blog.
I did have something more useful to contribute in this post, which is that I did a comparison of the caps at Beaver with the UK disc and the framing seems near identical. Oh well, a teensy bit more information on the top and bottom wouldn't really have mattered anyway.
But so much for this:
Anyway so glad he wanted to come aboard nonetheless. See also his wonderful contributions at Dave Kehr's blog.
The framing won't be abominable for the layperson, anyway. As in domino harvey's earlier post, it depends on how one defines "horrible." It doesn't look obviously horrible (which I'm pretty sure is what he meant) but I would argue that to have a great Sirk film look other than its absolute best is nevertheless horrible.HerrSchreck wrote:And nobody is really going to end up seeing any abominable scenes/framing.
I did have something more useful to contribute in this post, which is that I did a comparison of the caps at Beaver with the UK disc and the framing seems near identical. Oh well, a teensy bit more information on the top and bottom wouldn't really have mattered anyway.
But so much for this:
(edited to fix pesky quote tags)Billy Feldman on HFT wrote:While it's been a while since I've run the region two, my memory is that I thought they'd matted a zoomed in source - if that's the case (it looks way too grainy to be anything other than that), then that's why it's too tight - I'm guessing the Criterion transfer will look just right because it will be off a non-zoomed in source. Jack and Bob have explained this repeatedly.
Last edited by Gregory on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:01 pm
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
Well, not seeing the Criterion transfer hasn't stopped you from making a huge number of posts, has it?HerrSchreck wrote:Billy, that's lazy thinking. How could you allow your mind to go there, without a voice saying "wait-- rather than compare frames that don't correspond to each other, maybe I should wait to see frame specific comparisons between the CC and other widescreen editions."billy feldman wrote:The DVD Beaver now has screen caps posted for the Criterion MO - there is not one cropped head, not one shot doesn't look perfectly framed and none of his caps look remotely like anything posted here, which leads one to think that maybe the other widescreen DVDs were taken from a zoomed in print. I'm looking forward to seeing the DVD very soon.
And nobody is really going to end up seeing any abominable scenes/framing. Metty and Sirk made the film work in both versions, so that audience members who went into either version wouldn't feel like anything was amiss.
You know, I hate to tell you but they WERE hired hands working for the studio. You don't want to accept that, which I find peculiar. Sirk wasn't an "auteur" he was a working director - a great one, yes - but he didn't raise the money, and the films didn't belong to him. He did his job. Your view on things, while interesting for you, is all conjecture. What is not conjecture is that Sirk was a hired hand, as was Metty. Neither of them ran the studio, assigned projects, or had final say on anything. All else is Fantasyland, I'm afraid.Gregory wrote:Oh great, we have a new member. Billy feldman, remember, is the person at Home Theater Forum who engaged in relentless trash-talking about our forum. The stupidity on our forum is frightening. We're a bunch of amateurs who claim to be "experts," he says. And we have the nerve to try to interpret what Sirk was doing artistically even though we can't get inside his head. Sirk was a HIRED HAND, billy feldman says, and Metty was a HIRED HAND, and apparently all directors within the studio system were all HIRED HANDS, HIRED HANDS, HIRED HANDS (all caps retained from original) and so they all just churned the stuff out one after the other to meet the insatiable need for new films, and they never went beyond the needs and desires of their employers in any way. Simple as that.
Anyway so glad he wanted to come aboard nonetheless. See also his wonderful contributions at Dave Kehr's blog.
The framing won't be abominable for the layperson, anyway. As in domino harvey's earlier post, it depends on how one defines "horrible." It doesn't look obviously horrible (which I'm pretty sure is what he meant) but I would argue that to have a great Sirk film look other than its absolute best is nevertheless horrible.HerrSchreck wrote:And nobody is really going to end up seeing any abominable scenes/framing.
I did have something more useful to contribute in this post, which is that I did a comparison of the caps at Beaver with the UK disc and the framing seems near identical. Oh well, a teensy bit more information on the top and bottom wouldn't really have mattered anyway.
But so much for this:(edited to fix pesky quote tags)Billy Feldman on HFT wrote:While it's been a while since I've run the region two, my memory is that I thought they'd matted a zoomed in source - if that's the case (it looks way too grainy to be anything other than that), then that's why it's too tight - I'm guessing the Criterion transfer will look just right because it will be off a non-zoomed in source. Jack and Bob have explained this repeatedly.
- Antoine Doinel
- Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:22 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec
- Contact:
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
Richard Cranium '09 has already been decided. Great work, billy!
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- Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:55 am
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
"Well, if it isn't fat, stinking Billygoat, Billyboy in poison. How art thou, thou globby bottle of cheap, stinking chip oil? Come and get one in the yarbles, if you have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly thou."
Yeah, I guess I'm having a Kubrick reverie what with all the chat at EWS.
Apy polly loggies to all regular forum members for my second rant today. 2009 is not off to a good start for me. The Richard Cranium Award is another matter entirely.
Yeah, I guess I'm having a Kubrick reverie what with all the chat at EWS.
Apy polly loggies to all regular forum members for my second rant today. 2009 is not off to a good start for me. The Richard Cranium Award is another matter entirely.
- GringoTex
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:57 am
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
The French developed the concept of "auteur" to apply to working directors in Hollywood. You don't even have the most basic grasp of the terms you use.billy feldman wrote: Sirk wasn't an "auteur" he was a working director
- Jeff
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:49 pm
- Location: Denver, CO
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
Precisely. Auteurism doesn't have anything to do with running the studio, owning the rights, or calling all the shots. Auteurism and independence are not synonyms. The most revered auteurs in the classical sense of the term are guys like Sirk and Nick Ray and Sam Fuller who turned out genre pictures for their studios that were full of subversive themes and artistic direction. A Personal Journey with Martin Scorsese Through American Movies is largely about this concept.GringoTex wrote:The French developed the concept of "auteur" to apply to working directors in Hollywood. You don't even have the most basic grasp of the terms you use.
Sirk's rep would have faded into obscurity if it hadn't been for the gang at Cahiers, who revered Sirk as an auteur. Godard wrote about A Time to Love and a Time to Die in the April 1959 issue. Jean-Louis Comolli's "The Blind Man and the Mirror: or The Impossible Cinema of Douglas Sirk" from the April 1967 issue basically defined the modern interpretation of Sirk...as an auteur.
- Sloper
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:06 pm
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
It isn't my place to weigh in on this train-wreck of a discussion, but I feel moved...
It’s fine to temper your appreciation of a work of art with knowledge of its circumstances, and although, to my mind, it seems pretty stupid (and in this case highly speculative) to draw simplistic connections between one thing and the other (the studio told Sirk how to make his film, therefore he made it that way), if you really think, in your heart of hearts, that the man was a ‘hired hand’, working like a navvie on a railroad and swinging his hammer the way his supervisor told him, then fair enough. But I always wonder about people who say these things: if your conception of art is so prosaic, why do you even bother with it?
A lot of people say the same kind of thing about Shakespeare these days – that he was a ‘working man of the theatre’. This is perfectly true, as it no doubt is with respect to Sirk and any other film-maker who ‘didn’t raise the money’ for their productions. The idea is that, by showing an awareness of how Shakespeare (or Sirk) was ‘making a living’ and ‘following orders’, you prove that you have a down-to-earth, realistic understanding of the nature of art, rather than being some bourgeois, head-in-the-clouds ‘armchair expert’.billy feldman wrote:You know, I hate to tell you but they WERE hired hands working for the studio. You don't want to accept that, which I find peculiar. Sirk wasn't an "auteur" he was a working director - a great one, yes - but he didn't raise the money, and the films didn't belong to him. He did his job. Your view on things, while interesting for you, is all conjecture. What is not conjecture is that Sirk was a hired hand, as was Metty. Neither of them ran the studio, assigned projects, or had final say on anything. All else is Fantasyland, I'm afraid.
It’s fine to temper your appreciation of a work of art with knowledge of its circumstances, and although, to my mind, it seems pretty stupid (and in this case highly speculative) to draw simplistic connections between one thing and the other (the studio told Sirk how to make his film, therefore he made it that way), if you really think, in your heart of hearts, that the man was a ‘hired hand’, working like a navvie on a railroad and swinging his hammer the way his supervisor told him, then fair enough. But I always wonder about people who say these things: if your conception of art is so prosaic, why do you even bother with it?
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
That Billy Feldman is no Truffaut.GringoTex wrote:The French developed the concept of "auteur" to apply to working directors in Hollywood. You don't even have the most basic grasp of the terms you use.billy feldman wrote: Sirk wasn't an "auteur" he was a working director
- Gregory
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
In case the reception of Billy seemed overly harsh to anyone, here is a link to the thread at HTF where (among many other things) he asked for a link to the thread on Touch of Evil at Kehr's blog so that he could "go over there and raise a ruckus, too" (as he put it, himself). I was worried he was going to do the same here. He complained numerous times at HTF there that he was unable to register here quickly enough to leap into the fray last October (the assumption was that his registration was being blocked by the pro-academy cabal of moderators here).
Fortunately, he didn't stick around too long, although I would've liked to ask him why he thinks the Criterion looks perfect, since he thought the UK DVD seemed so zoomed in, and the two are framed identically.
Fortunately, he didn't stick around too long, although I would've liked to ask him why he thinks the Criterion looks perfect, since he thought the UK DVD seemed so zoomed in, and the two are framed identically.
- cdnchris
- Site Admin
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:45 pm
- Location: Washington
- Contact:
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
I wasn't going to weigh in on that HTF thread but I have to admit I was amused by the conspiracy theories, especially since I couldn't have given less of a rat's ass about what anyone had to say about the subject (apologies to everyone who is passionate about it, just being honest) and I'm the only one who could stop people from registering. While during the summer there were registration issues that were my fault (now sorted out) by that point the most common issues were spam blockers and incorrect e-mail addresses being the reason why users weren't getting activation e-mails. His account was also activated but he must have used the wrong e-mail because when I tried to write him about his account, once I was informed he was having issues, I kept getting my e-mails bounced back.
I also liked how they flipped when the thread was temporarily moved to the "Infighting" forum and then split off.
Personally, I'm fine with him posting here, as long as its not just to "raise a ruckus" and bait certain members.
I also liked how they flipped when the thread was temporarily moved to the "Infighting" forum and then split off.
Personally, I'm fine with him posting here, as long as its not just to "raise a ruckus" and bait certain members.
- stereo
- Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:06 pm
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
What would Billy Feldman do?
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
I wish I'd a known in advance someone was going to delete my fricking Billy song. Who deleted it? I wrote it fast right into the reply box, so I don't have a copy of it.. and I got a kick out of it.
Folks who come on the board simply to complain about the sum membership and issue Deadly Serious Withering Condemnations, should be able to expect some tongue in cheek fun in reply. It's better than descending to his level of anger and blowing the board of fully on an already raw peeled topic.
Folks who come on the board simply to complain about the sum membership and issue Deadly Serious Withering Condemnations, should be able to expect some tongue in cheek fun in reply. It's better than descending to his level of anger and blowing the board of fully on an already raw peeled topic.
- cdnchris
- Site Admin
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:45 pm
- Location: Washington
- Contact:
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
That was me, and it hurt to do that. I got rid of a bunch of posts that I felt were going to lead to another sort of flame war and that was one of them I got rid of. I should have just moved them to "Infighting." My apologies for that.HerrSchreck wrote:I wish I'd a known in advance someone was going to delete my fricking Billy song. Who deleted it? I wrote it fast right into the reply box, so I don't have a copy of it.. and I got a kick out of it.
Folks who come on the board simply to complain about the sum membership and issue Deadly Serious Withering Condemnations, should be able to expect some tongue in cheek fun in reply. It's better than descending to his level of anger and blowing the board of fully on an already raw peeled topic.
- fiddlesticks
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:19 pm
- Location: Borderlands
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
That post, although outstandingly clever, firmly implanted Billy, Don't Be a Hero into my brain for the better (or worse, much worse ) part of a day, with the result that I briefly wished that Herr Schreck himself could be deleted.
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- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:31 pm
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
All this aspect ratio malarkey would be avoided if studios simply did the right thing and expose all of the image including the sprocket holes.
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
I love seeing aperture marks and hints of the sprocket holes-- like in the BFI transfers of the Bauer silents. Makes me feel like I have the actual reels in my collection.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
Personally, I think Scope films should not only be shown with sprocket holes but also in their original squished Academy form. After all, that's what's actually printed on the celluloid, and true purists shouldn't need any special lenses - if anything, they're a barrier between the eyeball and the film.Oggilby wrote:All this aspect ratio malarkey would be avoided if studios simply did the right thing and expose all of the image including the sprocket holes.
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- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:31 pm
Re: Aspect Ratio discussion for Magnificent Obsession
I think it's ridiculous that studios even bother with HD transfers. Just stick an HDV camera at a theater screen. Any other way isn't how it was meant to be seen. You don't think Douglas Sirk would want us to see anything but all of the frame and only in a theatrical setting?