Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

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diamonds
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#151 Post by diamonds » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:28 pm

tenia wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:49 am
As written a few days ago, I was working on trying to statistically schematize and analyze what I was seeing when it comes to Ritrovata'd and Eclair'd movies, showing how it's not a matter of production countries or periods, and that's it's unique to them, being aside from pretty much everyone else, and that even Ritrovata and Eclair are not working towards similar fashions so they two can't even be discussed as an item.

I've finalised that this morning, and my main article (in French) has been updated to include the findings : https://testsbluray.com/2021/05/08/rest ... echniques/
Excellent, tireless work tenia. One sincerely hopes this receives its due attention from home viewers as well as some movers in the industry.

A minor correction regarding one of the screenshot captions: Rien ne va plus and La fleur du mal were shot by Eduardo Serra, not Renato Berta.

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tenia
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#152 Post by tenia » Mon Apr 22, 2024 2:25 pm

diamonds wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:28 pm
A minor correction regarding one of the screenshot captions: Rien ne va plus and La fleur du mal were shot by Eduardo Serra, not Renato Berta.
Thanks for catching this one, it's now corected !

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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#153 Post by tenia » Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:14 pm

Oh and don't hesitate to make the article go round a bit. I've already discussed with both labs, they know what my methodology anyway so I don't think I have anything to lose for it being out there as much as possible.

And if somebody is able to get this to slow down or even better stop by making this article visible to someone with such reach, then it won't have been for nothing.

nicolas
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#154 Post by nicolas » Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:45 pm

tenia wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:14 pm
Oh and don't hesitate to make the article go round a bit. I've already discussed with both labs, they know what my methodology anyway so I don't think I have anything to lose for it being out there as much as possible.

And if somebody is able to get this to slow down or even better stop by making this article visible to someone with such reach, then it won't have been for nothing.
I couldn’t be happier if the article achieved just that but I’m feeling a little pessimistic in that regard after having attempted something in that vein myself (albeit on a smaller scale) by pointing out all the flaws in the worst UHD: Kino Lorber’s encodes of Fear and Desire and the Kubrick shorts in 4k by making caps and BDInfo graphs for all of them with comparisons to their old 2012 BD. Not to go too much off-topic, hence only a brief quote from what I wrote to Geoff D on the other forum, but neglect is probably the most likely outcome for now - but still, if we don’t speak up in these matters, absolutely nothing happens in the slightest as others certainly won’t.

“I decided to copy-paste my post [about the Fear and Desire UHD] into the KL main thread and, naively, I thought that I *might* catch our friendly Kino Lorber Insider’s attention as what they released here is beyond anything remotely acceptable even for the lowest of standards they set for themselves. Verbally, I couldn’t possibly match his disrespectful, passive-aggressive tone, hence all the evidence with caps and charts beyond my usual talk. I expected and got a modest blast of animosity from a few die-hard Kino Cult members but then, genuinely surprising to me… an endless void of pure ignorance and silence. As soon as the regular posters in this thread (their key buyer group anyway) started breaking down their studio deals again as if nothing happened, I knew that’d be the end of that story and nothing will change to the better, not even an inch.

Examples like Fear and Desire are even more sad as they reveal how much better physical media could be if the people in charge only cared a little more beyond their immediate 9-to-5 job compensation, rank, industry contacts,… and build a legacy of contributing something meaningful to this niche.”

These labs go the easiest route as well, following their boss’s guidelines even though the colorists probably know that they’re not doing the right thing for the films and that they could do better if they only got the chance. Many authoring houses also could do better, I’m sure of that, but if their cheap, half-a**ed encodes are approved anyways, why bother wasting more time, rendering power, personnel etc. It’s funny that both of these parties often go hand-in-hand. Badly graded Ritrovata masters are often a pain to encode because of a lighter grain structure, crushed highlights due to the grade (which invites encoders to throttle the bitrate there) and yellow is trickier as a color anyway. That’s why Criterion BDs of Ritrovata and Éclair masters are generally unwatchable among a sea of macroblocking.

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ChunkyLover
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#155 Post by ChunkyLover » Mon Apr 22, 2024 9:22 pm

tenia wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:49 am
I've finalised that this morning, and my main article (in French) has been updated to include the findings : https://testsbluray.com/2021/05/08/rest ... echniques/
Is the MoC of "Conversation Piece" a confirmed Ritrovada restoration?

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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#156 Post by tenia » Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:41 am

I'd have to double check that again, as it's been a long time. I doubt I got the info from my hat, so it might have been explicited somewhere, but I don't think I have the MoC disc anymore (only the Gaumont) and the MoC disc might be a CSC Rome grading instead of Ritrovata. If somebody has the possibility to check this one, please do !

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Drucker
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#157 Post by Drucker » Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:31 am

The MOC disc looks like the caps on caps a holic, and definitely not like the Gaumont disc.

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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#158 Post by tenia » Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:59 am

We know they do, the question is whether I'm correctly attributing the master used by MoC to Ritrovata or if it has been done elsewhere. ;)

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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#159 Post by Drucker » Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:00 pm

I promise I read through your entire article and could not make out a word of it! I can check the disc credits when I get home.

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tenia
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#160 Post by tenia » Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:44 pm

Drucker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:00 pm
I promise I read through your entire article and could not make out a word of it!
If you mean the section about Conversation Piece exactly, it reads as : "Interesting case : the movie was released in 2012 in the US from an older HD master, then in 2013 through Gaumont via an Eclair restoration, and then in the UK through Eureka via a Ritrovata restoration. All 3 gradings are totally different from each other".
Drucker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:00 pm
I can check the disc credits when I get home.
If you can have a look either at the beginning or at the end of the movie, there might be a lab text panel expliciting who did what (as MoC's booklets don't offer this kind of tech details).

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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#161 Post by ChunkyLover » Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:07 am

tenia wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:44 pm
If you can have a look either at the beginning or at the end of the movie, there might be a lab text panel expliciting who did what (as MoC's booklets don't offer this kind of tech details).
The MoC Blu does not have any restoration/lab credits. Personally, it doesn't scream like a Ritrovata restoration. The whole presentation looks a bit flat and dull compared to their usual work.

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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#162 Post by tenia » Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:26 am

Thanls for the feedback. It won't change much to my listing as it's listed under the Eclair section and the Gaumont master definitely is from Eclair, but yeah, the MoC one might be from CSC Rome or Cineteca di Bologna, who kinda grade like Ritrovata but not exactly, it's mostly very dull and creamy.

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Drucker
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#163 Post by Drucker » Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:56 am

Yep confirmed this morning on my end, too. Opens with the original title cards/credits. No restoration notes to speak of.

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ellipsis7
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#164 Post by ellipsis7 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:25 am

The 2016 MoC dual format release of Luchino Visconti's CONVERSATION PIECE (GRUPPO DI FAMIGLIA IN UN INTERNO) was likely not from a new restoration... It seems that came later with the restauro debuting in 2019...
La Festa del Cinema di Roma, giunta alla 14esima edizione, (17 al 27 ottobre 2019).ha visto una forte presenza del Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia presieduto da Felice Laudadio: tre nuovi restauri realizzati dalla Cineteca Nazionale...

I tre restauri sono: "Il mestiere delle armi" di Ermanno Olmi (2001), "Il manoscritto del principe" di Roberto Andò (2000), "Gruppo di famiglia in un interno" di Luchino Visconti (1974): un classico di un grande autore e due film relativamente recenti, realizzati nel XXI secolo ma già bisognosi di interventi di restauro e conservazione
The details of the restoration...
Il restauro è stato realizzato nel 2019 dal Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia-Cineteca Nazionale a partire dal negativo originale 35mm e dal negativo sonoro ottico messi a disposizione da Minerva Pictures Group Srl. Tutte le lavorazioni sono state realizzate presso il laboratorio Studio Emme di Roma. La supervisione al restauro del suono è stata realizzata a cura di Federico Savina.
Checking the coffee table book on the film published in 2013, there is however a mention that Fendi were delighted to support the restoration of the film by Minerva Pictures & Raro Video then, although the extent & methodology of that earlier process is unclear...

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tenia
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#165 Post by tenia » Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:59 am

Wait, so there's a FOURTH presentation of it ? How much of a cash cow is Conversation Piece supposed to be to yield that many works on roughly 15 years ?
This being written, I never had a clear timeline between the presentations used by Gaumont and MoC, they just looked very different from each other, and then again from the Raro disc. Possibly, the 2019 work is different too, and good luck trying to guess how the movie was supposed to look...

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Matt
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#166 Post by Matt » Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:48 pm

Well, it looks like Claire Denis’ Chocolat got the Éclair blue rinse. Awful shame, it had such a beautiful warmth and there’s just nothing there now. It doesn’t look quite as dry and dark in Janus’ trailer for the theatrical release of the restoration. Criterion could give Denis or Agnès Godard a chance to goose the color balance before their physical release, but I’m not hopeful.

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tenia
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#167 Post by tenia » Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:41 am

It seems different than the previous release, judging by Beaver caps, but it bears nothing of the Eclair touch in itself (steely blues, strong contrast, orange-y yellows). I was actually pleasantly surprised to see that when I received the BFI disc for review.

nicolas
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#168 Post by nicolas » Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:22 am

Caps of the HDR layer of Le chat qui fume's Get Out Your Handkerchiefs / Préparez vos mouchoirs 4K UHD. Warning: Large file sizes!
The film was graded by Éclair. As I already mentioned, the DV layer of the film is vastly different than HDR10 and SDR. Colors are rich and saturated as they probably should be, but only in SDR and HDR10 and NOT in Dolby Vision. The DV layer shows significantly less vibrant colors than in HDR10. In DV, it looks as if the film received a bleach bypass.
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tenia
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#169 Post by tenia » Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:52 am

Those aren't downconverted to SDR, right ?

nicolas
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#170 Post by nicolas » Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:38 am

tenia wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:52 am
Those aren't downconverted to SDR, right ?
No, they aren't These are directly taken from the HDR10 layer and are accurate to what I'm seeing on my TV. They're in BT.2100 but the same color gamut as BT.2020

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