Blu-ray, in General

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Cinesimilitude · #26 Post by **Cinesimilitude** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:04 pm

I've got a 43" 16:9 tv, and I play my dvds on my xbox 360 and no compression artifacts for me. ditto on the projector my dad occasionally brings home from work, projected at 12' by 8' the same xbox 360.

Schkura wrote:There are also rumors of an HD DVD drive coming for Microsoft's Xbox 360. I think Mr. Pogue correctly surmises that video game consoles will play a noticeable part in the upcoming market battle and that the cost of a PlayStation 3 will be prohibitive for many gamers, putting Blu-Ray at a marked disadvantage.

It's no longer a rumor, MS showed it off at E3 (the gaming expo) and said that it was going to retail for 199 US, which brings the price for an HD drive and a 360 to 600 USD even, so its still a neck and neck war for us videophiles. or you can buy a 360 basic and the drive for 500, and there will no doubt be a bundle with games and movies that makes it even more enticing. If the right films come out, I might pick up the HD add-on, but I'm worried about the capabilities of the USB2 cable sending the maximum amount of info HD is capable of delivering and then through component cables to my TV, as opposed to an HDMI cable straight from the ps3.

for most gamers/movie lovers, it will come down to which game system they want to support, but for people buying it just for the HD support, its still a toss up.

Oh, and not that anyone here cares, but I am fucking STOKED for Halo 3.

FilmFanSea · #27 Post by **FilmFanSea** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:42 pm

An interesting column today from Bill Hunt at the Digital Bits.

After viewing 25 HD-DVD and 4 Blu-Ray discs, he concludes:

What all of this goes to prove, of course, is just what I've been saying all along: These formats are being rushed to market before they're ready. And it also proves that the best option for the vast majority of you out there is just to save your money. Don't even bother with Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD for at least a year, because there are significant bugs to be worked out yet. Wait until better hardware and software is available at a better price, and the early adopter types have dealt with the problems and getting the manufacturers and studios to fix them. Anyway, I'll have more to say about Blu-ray Disc and the Samsung player in the next few days, as I spend a little more time with it. But so far, I'm less than impressed.

Caveat emptor.

ellipsis7 · #28 Post by **ellipsis7** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:27 pm

And in which time new better formats could be developed and launched...

Simply, HDDVD & Blu-Ray are niche formats, DVD is here to stay for at least 5-10 years and more...

Like IBM, concentrating on the hardware, wre wiped out by Microsoft, concentrating on the software & operating systems, it makes no sense for studios or independent distributors to marginalise themselves, by going for these higher end formats...

Simply there's so much stuff still to be put on DVD, why turn the clock back to zero when there's absolutely no evidence that consumers would want to repurchase their collection for a marginally better reproduction...

Cinetwist · #29 Post by **Cinetwist** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:40 am

I really don't understand the opposition to HD DVD from cinephiles. The difference is HUGE and the technology is affordable. It is quite possibly one of the best things to ever happen to cinephilia. It's all about getting closer to what's meant to be seen in the cinema; in our homes.

If you use a projector, you must know how bad dvd can be. It's simply not meant to be blown up to 6 foot plus. Admittedly there are a lot of transfers that are acceptable for projection, but the difference HD can bring is worth it. Projectors have never been more affordable and perfectly competent models like the Infoucus 4805 and Benq PE5120 are capable of HD and cost less than televisions.

The argument that there are still titles that need to be released on dvd is stupid. There were still titles that needed to be released on 9.5mm, 16mm, Laserdisc and VHS.

And the price of individual HD DVD discs isn't an issue either. Because if they do take off, the online dvd rental companies will obviously rent HD as well, along with dvds, making it perfectly affordable.

I can understand people not being enthusiastic about it if they don't have projectors, but only just.

godardslave · #30 Post by **godardslave** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:37 pm

Cinetwist wrote:The difference is HUGE and the technology is affordable.

I note you are using "huge" in its "actually relatively small" meaning.

Cinetwist · #31 Post by **Cinetwist** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:14 pm

No. The difference genuinely is astonishing. I can understand that people don't think it can possibly be that much better than dvd because there are so many amazing dvds that you think couldn't possibly be improved on.

The difference is the equivalent of me not wearing my glasses to watch a dvd. It's about the same jump in clarity and detail.

Gigi M. · #32 Post by **Gigi M.** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:37 pm

Cinetwist wrote:I really don't understand the opposition to HD DVD from cinephiles. The difference is HUGE and the technology is affordable. It is quite possibly one of the best things to ever happen to cinephilia. It's all about getting closer to what's meant to be seen in the cinema; in our homes.

If you use a projector, you must know how bad dvd can be.

Well, I have an 81" screen with an Optoma HD72 DLP projector, and I'm more than pleased. Last night I watched Gance's masterpiece Napoleon from my old VHS copy, and to honest, it looked great.

#33 Post by **kinjitsu** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:48 pm

Cinetwist wrote:The difference is the equivalent of me not wearing my glasses to watch a dvd. It's about the same jump in clarity and detail.

Would it then be safe to say that the difference in clarity applies to HDTVs as well as projectors?

Here is PC World's Melissa Perenson's take on the new technology:

"I don't expect that we'll see dramatic, overwhelming differences in image quality between HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc movie content. I do expect it to be tough to isolate which format is superior for delivering video, given the number of variables that come into play--including choices in the video codec, bit rate, and encoder used, not to mention whether you're viewing the output over analog or HDMI, on a display capable of 1080i or 1080p.

We'll probably see subtle differences. Sony plans to encode its first generation of discs in MPEG-2, while Warner and Universal's HD DVDs are using the VC-1 or MPEG-4 AVC codec. RCA's and Toshiba's HD DVD players output at 1080i (even though the movie discs are 1080p), while the first Blu-ray players from Pioneer, Samsung, and Sony all output at 1080p.

I hope to see the same film released on both HD DVD and Blu-ray, at different bit rates and using different codecs. Only then will it be clear, visually, whether Blu-ray's greater maximum capacity of 50GB for dual-layer discs provides a tangible advantage. (HD DVD currently tops out at 30GB for a dual-layer disc; Toshiba raised the possibility of a 45GB triple-layer disc last summer, but according to the DVD Forum it has not been discussed, let alone formally added to the HD DVD spec.)"

I think we're in for a long wait so I'm not holding my breath.

FilmFanSea · #34 Post by **FilmFanSea** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:47 pm

David Pogue yesterday in the NY Times (Registration required).

Excerpt:

The two formats offer equally spectacular picture and sensational sound. The image is much sharper than before, and the detail is incredible.

Video buffs notice the difference right away. Most people, however, would notice a difference only if an ordinary DVD and a high-def DVD were playing side-by-side on big screens.

nick · #35 Post by **nick** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:19 pm

From the forementioned NY Times article:

Both DVD formats let you summon pop-up, on-screen menus without stopping the movie, so you can switch languages or change scenes without a detour to a main menu. Nice.

I've seen this "feature" identified in almost every article i've read on the high def formats and I am thoroughly confused. I have a subtitle and audio button on my remote control that lets me switch between subtitle tracks and audio tracks (ie. commentaries and whatnot) without ever going back to the main menu. I've own three different DVD players and they have all had this feature. Why are these reviewers treating this like it is some brand new technology? Am I missing something?

unclehulot · #36 Post by **unclehulot** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:43 pm

Exactly. You wonder if some of these guys have ever used more than one example of a dvd player!

Once in a while a disc disables toggling those options (god forbid).

Artois · #37 Post by **Artois** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:28 pm

I have a 32" 1080i CRT, and the picture quality increase is more than negligible.

I think the quote FilmFanSea posted sums it all up nicely.

Concerning the popup feature, as far as I can remember someone telling me (and obviously, you would assume based on how many times its mentioned) it's something slightly more advanced, like a separate window which comes up on the screen at any time during the movie with a complete menu of all features (i.e things like switch commentary tracks that kind of stuff), so you don't have to go back to the start.

FilmFanSea · #38 Post by **FilmFanSea** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:22 pm

I understand that a HD presentation of a recent film (say The New World) might look spectacular next to its standard-def cousin. But I will be curious to see what effect the new technology has when based on third generation or otherwise battered elements or poor quality transfers in general.

For example, would I want to see a typical New Yorker or Fox Lorber transfer at a higher resolution? Will HD magnify flaws that were less apparent in standard-def? Won't poorer quality transfers look even worse? High quality elements don't even exist for many of my most treasured films. So, will Rules of the Game or Tokyo Story or Ugetsu be a better viewing experience at 1080p than 480p?

Since the studios will want to showcase HD to its greatest advantage, the films they choose for release will almost certainly be limited to popular, recent, Hollywood blockbuster titles. Yeah, they'll throw out Gone with the Wind and the Wizard of Oz, and maybe Casablanca. But how long will I have to wait to see HD discs of films by the Dardenne brothers, Tsai Ming-liang, Wong Kar-wai, Pedro Almodóvar, Jacques Becker, Howard Hawks, to name just a few.

So, no, I'm not particularly excited about High Definition (and I write that as a projector owner).

Cinetwist · #39 Post by **Cinetwist** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:46 am

That's a very good point that you make FilmFan. There will certainly be cases where the elements simply aren't good enough to make a HD transfer worthwhile but that doesn't mean that we should deprive ourselves of films that are perfect for this treatment.

And the argument of having to wait for niche titles is stupid as well. When dvd first came out, it was mainly stuff that I wouldn't buy in a million years. Some specialist labels (Artificial Eye, Tartan and even 4 Front Video, a studio label) distributed exclusively on video until as late as 2001, when dvd was very firmly established. Does that mean we should have stuck with video? Nobody's going to make you replace your dvd collection, that would be silly. But to buy or rent titles you don't own or haven't seen on HD is surely worth it.

This was a rumor, so I'm not sure if it's true or not, but Studio Canal were planning to release "Le Cercle Rouge" I believe. So if you're worrying about having to wait years for the fare you're accustomed to buying on dvd, I'm not sure that'll be the case. Why would anyone want to pass on the chance of seeing a Melville film in HD? I'm not a city dweller and have never seen a Melville film on celluloid and probably never will. HD could approximate that.

Max von Mayerling · #40 Post by **Max von Mayerling** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:31 am

From a June 23, 2006 post on Barron's website:

According to the research firm iSuppli, Toshiba is taking a substantial loss on its first HD-DVD player, the HD-A1. The research firm estimates that the componets alone - excluding manufacturing, testing, cable, the remote and packacing - come to $674, pushing the total cost â€œto more than $700 per unit.â€

The Invunche · #41 Post by **The Invunche** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:48 am

Inefficient or not, that is the future. By building it around PC it'll be much easier to implement new features (apart from HD-DVD playback). Which is also why Toshiba is able to release firmware upgrades for the player that users can download and install from the player itself. The first upgrade is supposed to have pretty much wiped out all of the "early release" errors and bugs.

Put a harddisc and a TV tuner card in the next model and you have a media center.

Cinesimilitude · #42 Post by **Cinesimilitude** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:33 pm

one thing I'm looking forward to is no longer having to worry about picking up something in fullscreen... or anything incorrectly 4:3 again. but then again, we could also be seeing a new type of cropping to 1:85 for anything made originally in 4:3.

The Invunche · #43 Post by **The Invunche** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:13 am

Or 1:85 for anything made originally in 2.35:1.

JanPB · #44 Post by **JanPB** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:47 pm

Artois wrote:I have a 32" 1080i CRT, and the picture quality increase is more than negligible.

Here is one test I tried with an older DVD edition of 2001. When Dave disconnects HAL, he triggers this prerecorded announcement from Dr. Floyd. There is a long shot of this announcement played back on one of those small square HAL screens. At the bottom of that screen (Floyd's chest level) there is a caption.

Question: what does it say? Is it readable on the DVD at all? I was unable to do this and I always thought this would be a good HD test. (I know what the caption says because on the big screen in 70mm you can read it easily.)

SimonI · #45 Post by **SimonI** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:08 am

jedgeco wrote:This might be an unpopular opinion, but I hope CC will consider putting the brakes on a rash of anamorphic reissues in the next year. With the advent of high definition DVD formats looming -- and several studios announcing that they plan to be releasing titles by next Christmas -- why not just wait and reissue these titles in an HD format? What's the point of doing a second release of these titles, only to have a third release pending in the coming years? It seems like a waste to put CC's limited resources into reissues of already-available titles on a format that could be antiquated soon.

Your original question seems to have got lost in this discussion and that's a pity because I think it's a good one

My answer is that with the advent of HD - or rather, the prospect of me upgrading to it in a year or two - I've decided not to upgrade any disks I have based on picture quality alone. This means that I won't be getting the new Brazil release (but I will be getting Playtime and Amacord as I don't have these already) this time, but if at some point Criterion release an HD version I will quite likely get that. Amongst those "in the know" - and I'd expect that to include everyone here - isn't that likely to be a common response? I wonder if Criterion considered this when prospecting these new releases?

kekid · #46 Post by **kekid** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:08 pm

Two incompatible formats for High Definition DVD is not a viable long-term scenario. One of them will win, or they will settle on a compromise. Until this uncertainty is resolved, a DVD manufacturer would be taking a calculated risk entering the HD market. An independent company such as Criterion does not need to take this risk, and likely cannot afford making a wrong call at this stage. So if they suspend a part of their business (such as superior editions of previously released material) until the final verdict comes in, they could be waiting a long time. As some folks in business say, "tomorrow is of interest only to those who live through today".

sevenarts · #47 Post by **sevenarts** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:01 pm

Yes, this is totally on-target. I would say it will be quite some time before Criterion takes the plunge to start releasing HD titles, and they will certainly not do so until one format has been stabilized and widely accepted as the HD format of choice. And even then, a relatively small company like Criterion would be foolish to make a fast switchover to HD until it has become, far and wide, the benchmark for most home film viewing, on its way to becoming the way DVD is today.

I'd say the likeliest scenario for a future HD switchover is that Criterion would start releasing a few of their new titles on both HD and DVD, possibly even with a few extra features to make the HD switchover more appealing for the inevitable holdouts. This is probably well in the future still, though.

Cinesimilitude · #48 Post by **Cinesimilitude** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:14 pm

check this out guys. I think If blu-ray doesnt adopt the same, criterion would be inclined to pick hd-dvd, in which case, I would be inclined to make up my mind.

jcelwin · #49 Post by **jcelwin** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:48 am

It only puts the grain in. Kinda shit actually. It might run an algorithm to pick up where the grain should be, but that doesn't mean it is going to be right (probably be a lot more wrong than right). So, it really just messes with the image.

I doubt many players would bother support it.

daniel p · #50 Post by **daniel p** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:23 am

I just watched the Floating Weeds DVD, and noticed how sharp and detailed the picture was (1959 version), in comparison to other DVDs, when zoomed in 2x and even 4-8x. Knowing that this is not the best Criterion DVD transfer, I still noticed that things like edge enhancement were barely visible, thanks to maybe being transferred from a HD restoration.
I wondered if films such as this would benefit from HD-DVD releases. Could they really improve much more? And also, to any owners of HD players, how do the criterion discs look when played through the new technology, and projected on a big screen, or on a HD plasma?
I can see a lot of room for improvement on newer films and such, but I figure that the Criterion transfers are second best to HD, and I just wonder if DVD releases like L'Eclisse and some of the even better releases could be improved upon.