466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

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CriterionMaus
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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#76 Post by CriterionMaus » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:02 pm

Rich Malloy wrote:Manicsounds, you are incorrect. The scene was not included on either of Fox Lorber's two DVD releases, nor the prior VHS release. The 56 seconds or so that comprise that scene have been cut from all US releases.
Rich, I beg to differ with you. Unaware that Criterion was planning to release a new version of ITROTS on DVD, I recently purchased the Fox Lorber 2006 version (according to the slipcover's copyright date for the DVD artwork). Upon scanning the DVD, certain that I had previously seen the disputed "child abuse" scene in this version, I did find the scene and it seemed fully intact, with no blur and no zoom effect. Please correct me if there is another scene involving a woman being circled by two nude children, with the woman subsequently grabbing the little boy by his genitals and holding on while the boy tries to wriggle free from her grasp. Unless another such scene exists, I do believe this Fox Lorber version does, indeed, contain the scene as intended by Oshima.

Additionally, after reading this thread along with the DVD Beaver comparison review of the various versions available, I bought the new Criterion version from my local DVD store. I found said scene in this version as well, exactly as it appeared in my Fox Lorber version; no blur and no zoom effect. The scene, however appeared approximately two minutes later in the Criterion version than in the Fox Lorber version. I only had time for a cursory scan to compare the quality of the transfer between the two discs and to verify the existence of the scene in question on both, but I will try to determine if this discrepancy is due to additional footage between the film's beginning and this scene on the Criterion disc.

BTW, I live in the US and both versions that I own are domestic.
As I recall, there were two Fox Lorber DVD releases, the first framed at 1.33:1 and with the Japanese language soundtrack. I owned this one for years, as well as the essentially identical VHS release that preceded it. The second Fox Lorber DVD release was framed at 1.66:1, but - inexplicably - replaced the original Japanese track with an English dub.
Unless there are more than two Fox Lorber releases of ITROTS - and, judging from the many different release dates that I have found quoted for Fox Lorber versions on various review and sales sites, I'm beginning to suspect there are - I am guessing that I own the second release since it has a 2006 copyright date. This particular version, however, is framed at 1:33:1, contains the Japanese language soundtrack and provides optional English subtitles. By your statement, my Fox Lorber disc could not be the second release! Could it be a reissue of the first release with new cover art? But why would Fox Lorber choose to re-release the 1:33:1 version but not the 1:66:1 version? Then again, they were stupid enough to release the 1:66:1 version only in an English-dubbed format, so I wouldn't be surprised.
Had the scene in question been limited to the two nude children running around the room, playing and interacting just out of Sada's desperate grasping, I'd have not a single issue. But when she locks onto the male child's penis like a vice, and he looks out-of-frame crying out in either painful agony or distressed anxiety (both, I suspect), I think the scene has crossed over the line in several ways. First, the child is being abused. From his reaction, I don't think any even barely sensitive person can disagree. Second - and this is more of a judgment call - his reaction and what appears to me to be a desperate appeal to someone off-screen for help destroys all sense of verisimilute by breaking the fourth wall, thus rendering the scene a failure on a purely aesthetic basis.
Once again, I must differ with you on this point. I carefully viewed the scene and did not find anything truly controversial about it, especially upon considering the period in which it was originally filmed and intended for viewing. I really believe that our current western culture has become so uptight and overly sensitive over so many issues and "political correctness" has become such an utter joke that we have a difficult time viewing films from periods gone by without judging the filmmaker's "pc" choices and questioning the ethics/legalities of these choices. Seriously, we're questioning the ethics of filmmakers and films made decades ago from the perspective of the "pc era" - films that were produced before the term "pc" was even coined! After all, this film was made when naked baby photos were not considered child pornography and spanking a child in public did not arouse suspicion of child abuse!

The two children and the woman are simply playing a children's game. I can't speak for everyone, but I was raised during the 70s, when children often ran nude around the house and played silly naked games. These games were innocent and carried no evil connotations. Yes, Sada grabs the boy's penis and, yes, she holds onto it, but I never sensed that she locked onto it "like a vice"! They seemed to be playing "catch me if you can" and she caught him. The way in which she caught him is just testament to her obsession over the male member and foreshadowing of the tragic event yet to come.

I consider myself very sensitive, but I never felt that the child was in any pain or discomfort; he was simply caught by surprise and his expression seems to reflect this. If he's appealing to someone offscreen, my guess is that he's being given instruction by someone offscreen and, being a child, he does not understand an actor's responsibility to retain the fourth wall during filming. Honestly, Sada seems to have a gentle grip on his genitals because, at one point, she nearly loses her grip. Furthermore, I really find it hard to believe that the actress would be comfortable grabbing the boy's bits, as you say, "like a vice", and I doubt Oshima would have directed her to do so. From my perspective, the scene was shot tastefully and sensitively and without harm to the child. Sure, an adult is touching a child's private parts; an act, which, in our world today, would raise suspicion not only of child abuse but of child molestation. But she is not touching him in a sexual manner, although our knowledge of the film's storyline and the character's psyche may imply otherwise; such a conclusion would be the fault of our own preconceptions and interpretations.

I've seen films which depict scenes of adults bathing children and washing their genitals (eg. Halfaouine: Child of the Terraces and The Story of the Weeping Camel) as well as films that contain lengthy scenes of children cavorting in the nude in the presence of adults (eg. The Blue Lagoon and numerous "coming of age" titles both foreign and domestic), and this particular scene appears no less innocent than those scenes.

Finally, I have one question: why does the trailer on the Criterion site state that the film is rated R by the Motion Picture Code and Rating Administration?

Rich Malloy
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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#77 Post by Rich Malloy » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:00 pm

CriterionMaus wrote:Unaware that Criterion was planning to release a new version of ITROTS on DVD, I recently purchased the Fox Lorber 2006 version (according to the slipcover's copyright date for the DVD artwork). Upon scanning the DVD, certain that I had previously seen the disputed "child abuse" scene in this version, I did find the scene and it seemed fully intact, with no blur and no zoom effect.

Unless there are more than two Fox Lorber releases of ITROTS - and, judging from the many different release dates that I have found quoted for Fox Lorber versions on various review and sales sites, I'm beginning to suspect there are - I am guessing that I own the second release since it has a 2006 copyright date. This particular version, however, is framed at 1:33:1, contains the Japanese language soundtrack and provides optional English subtitles. By your statement, my Fox Lorber disc could not be the second release! Could it be a reissue of the first release with new cover art? But why would Fox Lorber choose to re-release the 1:33:1 version but not the 1:66:1 version? Then again, they were stupid enough to release the 1:66:1 version only in an English-dubbed format, so I wouldn't be surprised.
Maus, I think you must be correct, though I'm having some difficulty confirming (see below).

Fox Lorber appears to have released yet another disc in 2006, although this somehow completely escaped my notice. IMDb seems to list them all here.

There's the 7/28/98 Fox Lorber release (1.33:1/Japanese audio), the 4/25/2000 Fox Lorber release (1.66:1/English audio), and a 6/03/2008 Fox Lorber release for which there is no info listed at IMDB. Is anyone else familiar with this disc? This must have been a top-secret upgrade!

I've had the French Arte disc since 2005 or so. Although it's the complete cut and a very nice transfer, the lack of English subs/forced French was not completely satisfying for me. In other words, I would think that I'd have been all over a new release, particularly an English-friendly version of the complete (or, at least, more complete) cut.

However, I've been unable to find any Fox Lorber disc released on that date listed anywhere outside of IMDB, nor any reviews or other descriptions outside of yours. However, I note that Amazon.com does list the Australian PAL release as having come out on this same date.

Are you certain your disc is from Fox Lorber, and not the Aussie PAL import?

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#78 Post by Adamscurse » Sat May 02, 2009 7:33 am

Peacock wrote:Sorry guys, just a quick backtrack to the earlier discussion on the legality of importing the 'un-zoomed' version of Realm of the Senses into the uk. Does this therefore mean Criterion's "Fat Girl" would also get confiscated by customs?
Imported " Fat Girl " to the U.K last year without any problems, via Movityme if memory serves

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#79 Post by MichaelB » Sun May 03, 2009 4:01 am

Peacock wrote:Sorry guys, just a quick backtrack to the earlier discussion on the legality of importing the 'un-zoomed' version of Realm of the Senses into the uk. Does this therefore mean Criterion's "Fat Girl" would also get confiscated by customs?
No, because the situation is different. Fat Girl was cut by the BBFC because the scene of a sexual assault on a young girl was deemed to infringe the 1984 Video Recordings Act. However, as far as I'm aware, the material did not infringe the 1978 Protection of Children Act, which is the legislation that actually criminalises possession of sexually graphic material involving children - I haven't seen Breillat's film, but I'm guessing that the assault was simulated, so the 1978 legislation wouldn't apply.

There's also every likelihood that Customs wouldn't even be aware of the content of that particular title, not least because it played under the original French À ma soeur! in the UK. However, they are all too aware of the content of and legal issues surrounding the Oshima film, having impounded countless VHS and DVD copies in the past.

That said, I'm not aware of any seizures of the new version - but there's every possibility that they might happen, because there hasn't been a change in the law since the Criterion edition was released, so I doubt they'd feel any differently about the new edition. (If anything, the vastly superior picture quality would strengthen their case!)

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#80 Post by colinr0380 » Sun May 03, 2009 8:47 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Peacock wrote:Sorry guys, just a quick backtrack to the earlier discussion on the legality of importing the 'un-zoomed' version of Realm of the Senses into the uk. Does this therefore mean Criterion's "Fat Girl" would also get confiscated by customs?
No, because the situation is different. Fat Girl was cut by the BBFC because the scene of a sexual assault on a young girl was deemed to infringe the 1984 Video Recordings Act. However, as far as I'm aware, the material did not infringe the 1978 Protection of Children Act, which is the legislation that actually criminalises possession of sexually graphic material involving children - I haven't seen Breillat's film, but I'm guessing that the assault was simulated, so the 1978 legislation wouldn't apply.
Yes, the main problem with the scene in Fat Girl was not that it was a filming of a criminal act but that the image of an adult assaulting a minor could be used in 'grooming' scenarios. Here's the BBFC report. Ridiculous reasoning and I feel that the cut destroys the intent of the film, ironically turning the final scene into a pure violation rather than a situation where the girl in a way turns the tables on her attacker, but it wasn't done for In The Realm Of The Senses-type reasons.

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Re: 468- 469 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#81 Post by Particle Zoo » Tue May 05, 2009 9:41 am

MichaelB wrote:Incidentally, a quick warning for anyone in Britain tempted to import In the Realm of the Senses - a scene in the uncut version infringes the notoriously draconian 1978 Protection of Children Act (since it effectively constitutes a recording of unsimulated child abuse), which means that even possession is illegal. UK Customs are well aware of the content of the film, have seized plenty of copies in the past - and its reissue on a prestige label provides no legal defence whatsoever, so if it happens there's nothing you can do.
I checked my mail at dinnertime and guess what what was waiting on my doormat! I feel all subversive now! 8-)

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#82 Post by Napier » Tue May 05, 2009 9:50 am

Have some hard boiled eggs and enjoy. :lol:

CriterionMaus
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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#83 Post by CriterionMaus » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:12 pm

There's the 7/28/98 Fox Lorber release (1.33:1/Japanese audio), the 4/25/2000 Fox Lorber release (1.66:1/English audio), and a 6/03/2008 Fox Lorber release for which there is no info listed at IMDB. Is anyone else familiar with this disc? This must have been a top-secret upgrade!
I guess they keep trying to get it right . . . but keep missing the mark!
Are you certain your disc is from Fox Lorber, and not the Aussie PAL import?
Yes, I am certain. The Fox Lorber logo is on the back of the slipcover, and it is NTSC.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#84 Post by GringoTex » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:08 pm

I've never been able to appreciate Japanese ghost story cinema (not even Kwaidan or Ugetsu), so who knows what I was expecting out of Empire of Passion, but I saw nothing but mediocrity. I'm a big fan of Oshima, but all I saw him doing here was adding uninspired soft porn to a genre template. With the mediocrity of Hobson's Choice and The Hit, I don't think I've ever been more disappointed in a Criterion string.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#85 Post by HistoryProf » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:21 pm

I too have found a lot of Japanese Ghost Story stuff rather tedious...but unlike gringo, I was absolutely enthralled by Empire of Passion from the first frames until the final brutal act. I have to say the transfer is about as incredible as any film from the 70s i've ever seen. period. It looks like it was filmed last year w/ 4000k digital cameras. The story was haunting, and it moves along at a deliberate but never slow pace. This was my first experience with Oshima (as I said, not the biggest fan of a lot of Japanese stuff I've seen), but after about 20 minutes I knew this was going atop the "to buy" list.

With all the discussion about 102 minutes vs. 108 minutes and children's penii, I wonder if those who have seen more Oshima than these two offerings care to actually discuss the movies themselves? There are a couple of references here to Empire being the superior film - and I confess to owning the reissue of Salo but never having the gumption to actually put it in the player - but how does Realm compare to Empire? Is it shocking for schocking's sake...in Salo territory? I'm hardly easily offended or of a weak constitution, on the contrary I tend towards the morbidly curious...Just what can one expect from Realm having seen and loved Empire?

If nothing else, Empire gives me the perfect response to this long unsettling grooming trend among females these days....now I can tell them all: You shave, You'll go blind!!"
Last edited by HistoryProf on Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#86 Post by HistoryProf » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:28 pm

Oh, and has anyone ordered Empire of Passion from Amazon? They oddly have the identical details, description, and customer reviews for Realm on the Empire page...so the Realm SDVD, blu, and Empire sdvd pages are all the same minus pricing and product images. The "also available in" blu ray link likewise goes to the Realm blu. I just want to be clear i'll be getting the right disc if I order from there....

http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Passion-Ta ... ref=sr_1_3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.amazon.com/Realm-Senses-Blu- ... =ed_oe_blu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.amazon.com/Realm-Senses-Crit ... =ed_oe_dvd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#87 Post by Tommaso » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:24 am

HistoryProf wrote: There are a couple of references here to Empire being the superior film - and I confess to owning the reissue of Salo but never having the gumption to actually put it in the player - but how does Realm compare to Empire? Is it shocking for schocking's sake...in Salo territory?
Aaaahm.... I think there's some sort of misconception here, but I'm not sure whether it pertains to "Realm" or to "Salo" or both. First of all: "Salo" is NOT shocking for shock's sake, quite on the contrary; Pasolini uses every camera strategy he can think of to distance the viewer from what appears on screen. In order to be shocked, there must be the possibility of identification, and Pasolini works in exactly the opposite direction (especially in contrast to films like "Saw", I suppose). That "Salo" still is shocking, at least on a first viewing, has to do with the subject matter and a viewer's incapacity to take the distant viewpoint that Pasolini obviously requires. One could argue that Pasolini over-estimated the audience's capacity for abstraction in the face of what is depicted on screen, and that the reflection-process he wants to instigate (having to do not with sex, but with the mechanics of power, capitalism and consumerism) does not happen because of the acts portrayed.

With "Realm" I'm not sure about what Oshima intended; the film simply is far more relying on close-ups than "Salo", it's far more vivid colourwise and as far as sets are concerned, so it's more likely that Oshima doesn't want to create a distancing effect and instead asks for a deeper emotional involvement and experience of the 'madness of love and sex' on the part of the viewer. I don't find "Senses" shocking in the strict sense of the word; I find Ichikawa's "Fires on the Plain" far more devastating and unsettling, for instance. But neither is "Senses" an erotic film for me; I watch it with a curious mixture of fascination, disgust, and in the end, a mild boredom. There are some scenes in it which may be considered offensive, of course; but after all it's far too artsy to have a real shock value. I have a similar opinion (re: artsiness) about Makavejev's "Sweet Movie", but consider the latter to be the much better film, not least because its funnier and has more complex undercurrents. These are not absent from the Oshima film, of course; he also tries to make statements on Japanese society in the early 20th century, but I'm not fully sure whether the concentration on the two main characters allows these to come to full bloom.

Finally, I would also say that "Empire" is the better film, not least because it doesn't hammer its message in the way "Senses" does. But if you like "Empire", no reason not to see "Senses". At the very least, it's visually striking and sumptuous. But it simply isn't among Oshima's very best works in my opinion.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#88 Post by dad1153 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:42 pm

Saw "Senses" on Blu-ray over the weekend for the first time. I don't know what is more incredible. That the events/characters depicted in the flick really existed (poetic liberties notwithstanding) or that Ôshima and his skeleton crew of actors/technicians had the guts (and financial backing from France) to depict an all-consuming love affair on film with such relentless detachment from both the subject matter and conventional narrative. Tatsuya Fuji and Eiko Matsuda make Brando and Schneider's couple from "Last Tango in Paris" look repressed and uptight. These actors give it their all (Matsuda in particular is asked to go to that 'dark' place actors seldom reach into) and writer/director Ôshima backs them up with what charitably could be called monogamous lust taken to its most illogical extreme. Some hilarious-by-default moments (the 'egg' scene, Sada's visits to her old principal, etc.) help break up the tension but only a little bit. The fact there is almost no scene and no secondary plot in the movie that doesn't involve Shikizo or Sada having sex (with each other or supporting characters) traps the audience into the same haze of lust surrounding the doomed lovers, effectively mirroring (for us) how trapped in their own little world these two were. And for the record, it was so cool to see Eiko Matsuda drinking Sake straight from the bottle (twice! =D>) instead of delicately pouring it into a little plate like every other character in a Japanese movie I've seen to date (even drunks and so-called 'thirsty patrons'). That, to me, drove through how much of an individual Sada Abe was than the whole sex/penal removal thing. :-k

The scene with Sada playing with the little boy's private parts did serve a story purpose (to show just how unhinged the woman was becoming with the whole penis thing) but nevertheless felt gratuitous and exploitative because it depicted children being molested (even for just a brief on-camera inappropriate touch) for the sake of art. I'll defend Ôshima's right to present his work as he sees fit but that scene crosses the line, IMHO. Also, this is one Blu-ray I wish I would have gotten as a DVD instead of high-def BD. I'm no prune but the clarity and 'you are there' immersion the high-def transfer provides made this first-time viewing of "In the Realm of the Senses" a little too much for me to take in one sitting (which I did anyway). Hopefully the repeat viewings will be easier to sit through given that the shock of what Ôshima got away with in '76 simply blindsided me (I knew it was sexually explicit but not in almost... every... single... scene...). And no, I haven't seen Pasolini's "Salo" yet. "Empire of the Senses" is up next before "Salo," and I'm so happy to read that there are better Ôshima movies to look forward to after the introductory shock of his most notorious work. Because with the sexual content out of the equation Ôshima seems like the type of filmmaker that would explore emotional depths few directors would dare to approach.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#89 Post by farfisasynth » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:10 am

I have been a fan of In The Realm Of The Senses for a couple of years now, and tonight I finally got around to viewing the supplements of the Criterion DVD. Perhaps the thing that struck me the most was the sequence of material deleted by the producer (and director approved) not for content but for length. During each segment, I found myself grasping for answers as to why such material (all of ~6 minutes) was excised. In my opinion, I think this elements would have given an already rich film an even more luxuriant aura. I think a good portion of this material would have also served to balance the scales of power between the two leads, as it demonstrates the pleasure Kichizo gets from their relationship. Moreover, we gain a more interesting progression toward the eventual madness of death. I wish I knew what possessed Oshima to allow these cuts, since I would think the producer would be amenable to a reasoned defense. The two segments that beg this question the loudest are Three and Six. Three is important I believe because it beautifully shows the two of them coming together as one, as Sada begs for more of Kichizo to get inside of her. In response, Kichizo poetically describes his physical and emotional attachments that foment in response to such lust. The fact that we the audience are only permitted to hear this exchange from outside their room at the inn makes such a profound comment on the film's thesis. The Sixth segent shows Sada opening the doors to their room, just after executing the death blow of strangulation. Again, while this action may seem nominal, it's contribution to the message of the film in terms of making public this private erotism, seems like such a wasted treasure.

If only Criterion had the foresight to permit viewing of the film with these segments included as part of the disc's programming...

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#90 Post by Rich Malloy » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:29 am

farfisasynth wrote:If only Criterion had the foresight to permit viewing of the film with these segments included as part of the disc's programming...
As discussed above, you can view the film with the additional cuts reinserted on the French DVD, but you'll have to press "ENTER" on your remote when the little button appears onscreen designating additional material. Also, no English subs/forced French.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#91 Post by Toxicologist » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:40 pm

Rich Malloy wrote:
farfisasynth wrote:If only Criterion had the foresight to permit viewing of the film with these segments included as part of the disc's programming...
As discussed above, you can view the film with the additional cuts reinserted on the French DVD, but you'll have to press "ENTER" on your remote when the little button appears onscreen designating additional material. Also, no English subs/forced French.
How about the French Arte BD (Which i believe has Empire Of Passion too?) aren't the deleted scenes reintegrated without warranting use of a remote etc?

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#92 Post by HistoryProf » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:56 pm

Tommaso wrote:....I watch it with a curious mixture of fascination, disgust, and in the end, a mild boredom. There are some scenes in it which may be considered offensive, of course; but after all it's far too artsy to have a real shock value
Finally got around to this last night after devouring the Oshima Eclipse set and absolutely loving it - and having loved Empire of Passion as well as I noted above. But this? I really was simply bored by the end. it's just relentless, and I'm glad to not be the only one. Knowing what was coming, there was one too many scenes of asphyxiation and rather than ratcheting up the tension, I was thinking "come on, just do it already!" There's just so little exposition between the sex scenes that I couldn't really find any depth of meaning to grasp on to, and it felt like art house porn. Putting a 10 second scene of Kichi walking against the stream of soldiers was not nearly enough to politicize it for me...since of course that's preceded by sex and immediately followed by sex.

In the end I'll have to file this one away as a curiosity amongst a filmography filled with outright masterpieces. I'll never look at a hard-boiled egg the same way again though!

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#93 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:03 am

I kind of see the film as a more extreme version of The Night Porter, in the way that the couple cut themselves off from everything to fully explore their relationship to its inevitable end. Although the couple in Realm of the Senses willingly isolate themselves rather than get surrounded by gun toting Nazis. But we should also note that this is somewhat based on the real life character of Abe Sada.

Perhaps HistoryProf you might find Double Suicide more interesting, since that deals with a similar theme (including an early 'walking against the crowd' shot involving monks, I think, that I wonder could have inspired that shot in Oshima), but focuses more on the social aspect that the characters are trapped in and that they have to tear themselves away from, and which only offers the inevitable alternative of the Double Suicide to the characters for their transgressions.

While Realm feels purely expressed in sexual terms and the final act is an attempt to in some ways 'move beyond' what the couple have already experienced, Double Suicide feels more tormented both internally and externally, as if the characters are driven by urges that are impossible to deny or to change the course of. It actually feels quite ghostly in the way that the characters are puppeteered through their story, giving it an eerie repeatability as the story contains qualities of these characters trapped in an infinite loop of repeating their path to death, shown perhaps by Jihei at the beginning of the film crossing a bridge and seemingly glimpsing his and Koharu's bodies laid out together underneath.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#94 Post by dad1153 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:48 pm

^^^ Sounds interesting and worth checking out (after I'm done watching a few more Oshimas). While I admire "Realm of the Senses" for cinematically forcing its viewers to exist within the lust-filled tunnelvision view of the world Shikizo or Sada inhabit (which is the only way an audience not familiar with all-consuming obsession could understand it) the subject matter and explicitness makes for unappealing and infrequent (for me) repeat viewing w/o Rayns' commentary track. Once a year, maybe, but not more than that. Funny that a movie with wall-to-wall sex could be so off-putting in its incisiveness of what drives the leads to consume themselves and each other that it makes it hard for (some) of its admirers to delve into it repeatedly. That's the power of Oshima's cinema I guess, his movies stay within you and swirl inside one's mind even if you don't go back them as often as a "Third Man" or "Casablanca"-type endlessly rewatchable classic.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#95 Post by Fiery Angel » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:20 pm

John Simon's New York magazine pan of "Senses" (scroll down after his "Last Remake of Beau Geste" pan)

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#96 Post by dad1153 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:57 pm

^^^ Wow, Viceroy jeans for only $15? Sold! :D

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#97 Post by colinr0380 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:26 am

Re: In The Realm of the Senses

I thought it was an interesting film all about whether the total possession of another person, body and mind, is at all possible (or desireable!) and the impossibility of two people ever becoming one, no matter how much time they spend together. The limits of sex. I particularly liked the idea that the closer the couple become, the more extreme the moments that they are apart become, or the way that the slightest of difference in their reactions to a situation can be a shocking sign of their separateness even while they are joined together so intimately (such as the beating of the maid who calls them perverts, which is laughed off by Kichizo but taken personally by Abe; or the asphixiation play which seems much more to be about Kichizo wanting to give himself totally to Abe's pleasure than something mutually pleasurable - though by that point the play of obsession and submission has them fully in its grip). I could see parallels with the Cronenberg film Dead Ringers, but also a slight linkage could perhaps be made to that, rather queasy, film Cannibal which portrayed the events taking place in that notorious German cannibalism case as a kind of twisted attempt at total possession of another person.

Kichizo's possession, shown early on, is perhaps a more masculine kind of dominance - a wish to take whoever, whenever he wants, whether that is the latest maid he employs or the rape of the innkeeper (an act of anger and frustration at the outside world, or an attempt to prove to himself that he has liaisons beyond Abe Sada, despite her forbidding him to take anyone else). Sada's is more about the possessing of her object of desire totally, so there is the jealousy of the wife (while seemingly Kichizo's wife does not particularly mind, or has gotten used to, him screwing the home help on a regular basis. Perhaps it gives her some time off, usually secure in the knowledge that these encounters don't mean anything?), and the wish to move from a voyeuristic position of spying to herself being seen being taken by her lover, as if the lovemaking with Kichizo is the only thing that gives her life a greater meaning and sets her apart from the rest of the world.

The 'bull fighting' of the Ai no Corrida title can probably be best applied to the lover's sexual stamina - who will be subdued first? (Almodovar tackles a pretty similar scenario with much more explicit bullfighting imagery in Matador, and it would be interesting to discover whether Realm of the Senses was much of an influence at all on that film) Kichizo might be a voracious and promiscuous lover but that excitement is no match for the powerful fixated sexual attraction Abe Sada feels purely towards him. She needs the slapping and pinching stimuluses when she is 'working' with her client in order to feel something away from Kichizo but is insatiable again when with him; whereas ironically it seems that being trapped, albeit willingly, with just one woman causes Kichizo's libido to wither leading to the taking up of the asphyxiation games just to try and 'keep (it) up' to please his lover.

The possessiveness of Abe Sada is what destroys their relationship in that sense - her unwillingness to let Kichizo leave, have sex and recharge his batteries with other women (as his wife seems to have accommodated), or to even just leave him alone sexually for a moment to recharge prevents him from recovering enough to maybe end their relationship (even though Kichizo does not show any signs of wishing to do so), and leads to the inevitable death even though that will obviously leave Sada totally, irrevocably alone again (With only her inner child for company!)

Perhaps the most obvious example of this idea of possessiveness is the early scene where Sada performs oral sex and then in close up lets Kichizo's semen dribble from her mouth. This seems to play subversively with pornographic imagery where an image that most usually signifies male potency, of having 'filled up' their partner so much that they cannot take any more (and which visually displays the evidence of a man's orgasm for the viewing audience), gets turned from a rather demeaning to the female image to a display of Sada's dominance, as she is choosing to display to Kichizo (and the audience!) the result of his orgasm that he will now not be able to give to his wife. This seems to be the early, most explicit in a number of senses, bookend to the final scene of Sada literally claiming possession of her own penis and testicles from her lover.

I suppose in that sense the political aspect comes from the complete rejection of politics as a consequence of a rejection of the entire world beyond each other. The idea of one person totally giving their body to another without any other considerations for ethics (the marriage is abandoned; Kichizo never objects to Abe prostituting herself for short-term cash to fund their lifestyle except to express his jealousy of another man being with her), obligations (the business he runs appears to be abandoned), or codes of decency. The world cannot claim Kichizo for warfare; or to make money that can then be taxed; or to run a business that provides a more or less essential service (or even to simply produce the next generation for the good of the country, as neither wife nor girlfriend ever seem to get pregnant) - the couple become totally useless from a societal point of view.

All those scenes of sex in front of characters expressing various states of interest, shock, disgust, surprise, nonchalence seems to be showing the way the world is constantly intruding as much as the couple try to shut themselves away - sometimes with anger at the couple's exclusionary activities, sometimes damningly (for the ethics of the wider world) revealing a wish to participate. Presumably as long as they pay the bills almost everything is permitted (a comment on capitalism?)

Time seems to be both the couple's enemy and completely irrelevant. All ages exist at once, jostling against each other. There feels like a collapsing of life into three stages - the child, the virile, and the elderly, with only the middle stage being considered to be worthwhile. The child is a halcyon age, yet also containing a kind of cruelty and (obviously) an immaturity, aware of the taboo of sex but angry at this being a part of their future as in the scene where the children are tormenting the beggar in the early scene, snowballing his genitals. The elderly are tormented by memories of sexuality but impotent or incompetent as their bodies betray them.

Perhaps Sada and Kichizo are condemned by being shown as children in the two fantasies - the mid-point penis yanking one (where the adult Abe apparently, since I was watching the zoomed in Film4 version, grabs child Kichizo to possess her favourite organ much as she was doing to Kichizio when she wouldn't let go of his penis while walking him home earlier on, while the child version of herself looks on at the scene with a kind of dawning horror), and the final fantasy as Kichizo dies as he and his boy alter-ego circle Sada until both disappear and she is left with just the girl within her for company, asking the question of whether she is ready to die too, which she does not appear to be.

The parting of the souls is now totally final, proving their total separateness. Sada is left with the body she so desired to possess, yet it is a possession of a hollow shell, which itself will still decay, even at a much faster pace than normal aging. Perhaps the biggest question that the film leaves is whether this actually fulfills Sada - the final narration suggests that she was found in a state of ecstatic happiness, maybe mania, wandering from inn to inn with the severed genitals of her lover. Yet that final top down image seems to show Sada looking slightly perturbed and clinging to her dead lover as if still wanting to make him a part of her, as if she knows it is the end of something but does not wish it to be. What happens when you reach as far as you can go, have the biggest climax possible, and then find yourself later coming to your senses, and then a little later on finding that after having gone to such extremes that the craving may still be there and has not been satiated?
Last edited by colinr0380 on Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#98 Post by dad1153 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:24 pm

Saw "Empire of Passions" on DVD recently (where's my Blu-ray Criterion?). Far less sexually explicit than "Realm" (but not by that much considering it's half ghost story, half steamy erotic thriller) Oshima is firmly in control of the movie's tone and that's what sells it. Any Japanese hack could have done a rural Japanese cautionary ghost story with sex scenes in-between the scares that would have been laughable if the shifting mood hadn't been handled correctly. Instead "EOP" is yet another Oshima exploration of guilt-ridden souls craving physical intimacy while wrestling with society disapproval and inner demons far more scary than anything on-screen (although Takahiro Tamura's Gisaburo as a rickshaw-pushing ghost is mighty creepy). The lovers at the center of the story feel more human (flawed character and all) than their intolerant neighbors, and are thus more accessible than the similar-but-off-putting isolated couple from "Realm" (despite Tatsuya playing the male lead in both pictures). If you can get past the movie's 26 year age difference between Toyoji and Seki (instead of the actors' real-life six year age difference) "Empire of Passions" has more brains, eroticism and passion (duh!) than a dozen "Fatal Attractions" and "Basic Instincts" put together.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#99 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:43 pm

I had a lot of time to think over the definition of "pornography" while watching In the Realm of the Senses, because honestly there's not a whole lot else to do at a certain point in viewing this film other than start formulating arguments against it. I recall fondly a former professor who once quipped, "In the words of Justice Stewart, I like it when I see it." Another more cogently argued that pornography could simply be identified as any work whose express purpose is to sexually arouse the intended audience and using that definition, I'd agree that In the Realm of the Senses isn't pornography. But were that it was, for at least pornography has an express purpose that while not laudable is at least functional. The film half-heartedly alleges to depict sexual mania, the slowly snowballing interplay between a dropped-guard and increased arousal that happens behind closed doors, but the film is hampered with Porn Logic, and this monotonous structure ruins any weak attempts at anything other than shock value. Pornography is of course inherently monotonous-- it exists to achieve rapid arousal and release, and if you don't find something to your liking, wait and they'll try the same ingredients in a new way over and over (Hardcore pornography's a little like Taco Bell this way). But remove any serious attempts at depicting sexuality (certainly no grand connection will ever be made between the audience and these two hypersexed ciphers) and any serious attempts at depicting pornography and all that's left is an interminable trip into the realm of the senseless.
Last edited by domino harvey on Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 466-467 Empire of Passion and In the Realm of the Senses

#100 Post by SpiderBaby » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:53 pm

^ So pretty much one gets more out of pornography than this film.

"One gets more" would be like "More Important" to someone. Criterion releases (well they say they do) "important" films.

Then why in the hell hasn't Criterion released porno?

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