396 Ace in the Hole

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#126 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat May 16, 2020 10:26 pm

The fairy tale angle is definitely more of a stretch here than in Wilder's less tonally-distinct films, but those signifiers you're latching onto don't really fit the "fairy tales for adults" approach I think he takes. There is something about Douglas finding himself coincidentally planted outside a newspaper column in a small town (as well as the coincidence of finding himself near the 'incident' later) to be fairy-tale-like, though more of an 'anti-fairy-tale' because instead of a doe-eyed youth using the coincidence as a platform for growth and facing fears, Douglas is an older aggressive individualist, self-actualized in oil, and compromised by a lifetime of fighting like a dog. So he uses these coincidences as opportunities to flaunt his power and treat those he encounters not as guides for development, but objects to manipulate. He still winds up learning a lesson through the crumbling of this conditioned cutthroat attitude and inherent selfishness against his undernourished moral nature (which helps me view it as the latter, slightly less cynical, option in my second question) but it still follows a loose mold of the kind of parable one might find in a fairy tale written by someone like Douglas' Chuck Tatum.

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Rayon Vert
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#127 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat May 16, 2020 10:45 pm

I definitely see the fairy tale/parable angle as you define it here, or mythical anti-hero's journey you might also say, especially when thinking of the initial setup you describe and then thinking about the very last scene and shot!

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domino harvey
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#128 Post by domino harvey » Sat May 16, 2020 11:49 pm

I don't really see any semblance of fairy tales in the works of Wilder, I think that's a stretch by whoever said it first in the Apartment booklet. I think this film has a very obvious moral message delivered somewhat satirically that like the aforementioned Network is anything but subtle, but I don't think lesson teaching is the exclusive purview of fairy tales (and indeed, going back to Grimms or HCA direct shows they share more than a little with the free-associative Greek myths than a logical causal narrative Hollywood insists upon)

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#129 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun May 17, 2020 1:13 am

I don't think teaching is the sole purpose either, and agree with RV that some of the more interesting applications are the weavings of how Douglas moves through these coincidences, which also play out as realistic opportunities to test moral dilemmas. The film certainly doesn't demand to be viewed as any kind of fairy tale (none of them do), but I think there is an entry point even if minutely compared to some of his other works (and as someone who has been pretty consistent in expressing this auteurist reading within the Wilder thread long before confirming some validation in that booklet, I'm curious to how you'd challenge that perspective in those other writeups where I think the allegory makes more sense)

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#130 Post by Mr Sausage » Sun May 17, 2020 6:20 am

Is fairy tale the right word? I think what you guys are talking about is fable, an often fantastical story whose focus is on telling some kind of moral lesson.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#131 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun May 17, 2020 10:28 am

In this case it’s under that larger umbrella, sure, but in other works like Sabrina, Irma la Douce, etc. I think the original term fits. But if others disagree I’ll concede semantics, since that still gets at my point through the same avenue with a different name on the map.

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tenia
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#132 Post by tenia » Sun May 17, 2020 11:06 am

I think what's fascinating about Ace in the Hole is how the journalistic ethics and method displayed by Tatum is how they're probably more than ever visible everywhere around us during this pandemic period. My GF saw the movie for the first time a few weeks ago, straight during lockdown, and it was fascinating to see the real news choosing to speak about deaths figures rather than the ones recovering, or to do awful tear-jerking individualised bits about this one person whose mom/dad/sister/brother died from Covid19.
I've never felt so much in the movie than now (we watched Radford's 1984 yesterday, and Trump's handling of facts kept getting back to me while watching it). Like Frau Blucher, I don't see any fairy tale here, just pure business-making with literally anything Tatum can find. A man possibly dying ? That'll do !

It is however interesting to notice that this, in the end, doesn't seem to bother too many people. Were they, possibly, actually waiting for someone like him ? But for what purpose exactly ? Getting a bit of spotlight too ? Or because, in the end, they're not that different from him ?

In any case though, it's possibly my favourite Wilder (full stop), and a definite all-time favourite of mine, and I was glad to revisit it and see it's still holding up from beginning to the end (I seemed to remember it was dragging a bit in its middle but nope).

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#133 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun May 17, 2020 12:14 pm

The journalistic ethics are the loudest part of the film, so it’s no surprise that’s what everyone latches onto, especially since it’s eerily foreboding to where industrialize western nations were moving (have moved) towards. I probably got nothing else out of it other than tenia and Frau’s readings until this last one (which is fine with me, it’s a pitch-black slice of intensity-pie) but I couldn’t deny the way Douglas’ repressed morals kick in at the end; and the implications this has on a solely surface-level reading of the film.

Maybe the subtlety is destined to be enveloped by the extreme nature of the film and rendered invisible, but it’s definitely there. Somehow Tatum’s morality surfaces and wins out, setting the positive selfish consequences of every other nasty thing about him on fire- I don’t see how that can be ignored. It may be a futile optimism paired against the state of the world, but if that power of morality exists within Tatum to such a degree that he will sabotage his entire identity to align with it, then it exists in everyone else too.

To tenia’s point, I do think audiences were probably baffled to see someone ‘tell it like it is’ by showing a protagonist who embraces selfish individualism so unapologetically, especially on the silver screen when often collectivist, institution-led ideological ethics still ruled. Without a doubt this exposed a reality that everyone saw to some extent around them, and validated that individualism and selfish drives within themselves on some level.

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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#134 Post by DarkImbecile » Sun May 17, 2020 4:57 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:14 pm
Do you read this film as being primarily an indictment on the inevitable 'nature' of our humanity and culture (media as exploitative tool, selfish-defaults to exploit others for greed and acknowledgement, etc.) or a very accurate reading of the 'possibilities' in a swarm of wills coexisting as western cultures move towards distancing communication innovations and heightened pushes for individualism, as we separate from ideological connectors?
Emphasis mine; what this film depicts that resonates strongly with me is the innate, universal urge people feel to be the center of the story, to attach themselves in some way to anything of actual importance or interest, always insisting that they are deserving of more and better attention and recognition than what they're actually getting in the moment. Tatum obviously exemplifies this and exploits it in other characters like Sherrif Kretzer and Lorraine, but I think that what makes the film feel so dark relative to other pessimistic noirs with similarly toxic protagonists is that rather than a shark swimming in a sea of dumb, 'normal' minnows (à la The Third Man's Harry Lime*), Tatum turns out to be just one of many sharks in a sea of predators taking chunks out of each other to merely feel one inch ahead of the rest. I say "feel" because it almost doesn't matter whether they actually end up anywhere better off than they came from as long as they believe even briefly that their grasping got them a few inches more in the spotlight than some other chump.

twbb mentions the Western trends away from collective identity and toward a more selfish individualism, and if you're looking for nuggets of optimism among the wheelbarrows of pitch-black coal this movie dumps on the audience, I think one can reasonably view the urge of the crowds to be present and part of the unfolding drama as a craving for some sort of community purpose... even if their presence is more hindrance than help, and the lack of any bounds on their need to be part of the situation curdles into the unpleasant behavior/motivations I'm describing above.

Perhaps because the smaller-scale acidity of the core characters' actions and relationships always jump to the forefront of my mind when considering this film, something I always forget between viewings is how epic the scale of Ace in the Hole is; shots like the one below are so remarkable in a genre so often dominated by small groups of people lurking in shadows that they startle me every time.

Image

Still debating where in the top three this will go, but this is absolutely one of Wilder's best, and I think one that deservedly earns more respect than most even from his skeptics.

*Because my viewing choices have been primarily dictated by my children of late, I felt the need to clarify that this wasn't the Harry Lime played by Joe Pesci in the Home Alone movies

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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#135 Post by FrauBlucher » Sun May 17, 2020 5:49 pm

I don't see a swing to morality for Tatum. If anything he becomes more despicable as he tries to save his journalistic stardom after his ploy dies literally, by admitting it was his plan to keep him buried in the cliff. The old adage of "bad publicity is good publicity" applies to Tatums thinking. Even Herbie looks aghast as Tatum is explaining this to Nagel.

I lent this to a couple of co-workers who don't really watch old black and white movies. They were so impressed. They couldn't stop talking about it.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#136 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun May 17, 2020 6:09 pm

Great post, DarkImbecile. I completely agree with your initial point on that innate need for validation, and basically everything else too.

Frau, I see that point, and it’s an interesting thought that Tatum had an ulterior selfish motive to still be the center of attention, but it feels very much like a form of self-flagellation and a magnetic moral choice to self-destruct and take responsibility. I’m not saying Tatum’s heart grows three sizes like the Grinch- but that his repressed morality bubbles up unexpectedly, and he absolutely shows this prior to the man dying. He undergoes a change within himself that is foreign and causes acute dysregulation, and I read the final act of his erratic behavior as a product of such internally confusing dysregulation. That doesn’t mean he redeems himself in any way- and I like your reading that it’s too little too late and manifests as another self-focused ploy- but to me there is undeniable morals infiltrating his psyche prior to the death, and this is so uncomfortable that his entire character implodes.

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tenia
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#137 Post by tenia » Sun May 17, 2020 6:17 pm

I'm not sure if Tatum tries to spin around the whole schtick to save face professionnaly or because he looks like some kind of control freak who absolutely wants to keep control of the situation even when it goes awry.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#138 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun May 17, 2020 6:37 pm

I don’t refute that those could be dimensions of his intent, but I’m shocked there’s no third option that acknowledges his existential crisis as a result of a clear intrusion of alien morality. Do you really not see him breaking down and bursting at the seams trying to cope when the man is dying (before he dies? That’s part of why the performance is so great (not to mention what makes it rise above a paper thin surface of aggressive smarm)!

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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#139 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun May 17, 2020 7:33 pm

I definitely see what you see there, blus.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#140 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun May 17, 2020 7:56 pm

Rayon Vert wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:33 pm
I definitely see what you see there, blus.
Image

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Drucker
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Re: Ace in the Hole (Billy Wilder, 1951)

#141 Post by Drucker » Tue May 19, 2020 11:15 pm

A lot of great posts in this thread, and I'll just add that I think this will top my list of Wilders. It's every bit as dark and cynical as I remember, the performances and pacing are top-notch, and every moment just works for me. As I'm watching the Wilder films, what really sticks out between this film and some of the others are plans can slip out of control. Similar to not only Double Indemnity, but I was actually thinking about The Apartment a lot during this film. In the latter, our protagonist has a plan to climb the corporate ladder that slowly slips out of his control, and shows the collateral damage that comes of this plan. In many ways Ace In The Hole is similar, and you can imagine the character just thinking "I've got it all figured out," and life of course throws a few curve balls his way instead. What I think I like about Ace, however, is the way the tension of the film ratchets up as we get closer and closer to the climax. The stakes get ever higher, the contrast between the carnival outside and the seriousness of what is happening inside really helps contribute to the mood of the film, ensuring it stays lively to the end. Even the tossed off one-liners ("Don't you know there's a war going on?! Probably?! ((or is it somewhere?))) land well in this one.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: 396 Ace in the Hole

#142 Post by Lemmy Caution » Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:57 am

Not to make light of a fraught situation, but the trapped Indian tunnelers put me in mind of A in the Hole. They're about to start vertical digging, which is twice as long and first requires an access road carved out as the horizontal route became too dangerous. They have gotten some contact, installing a pipe to provide oxygen, a larger pipeline to deliver food. The men can communicate via walkie talkie. They've already been trapped for a week.

I imagine in the Indian version of the film, the trapped workers engage in an elaborate dance number to celebrate being on the verge of rescue, only to have the singing-dancing cause cave-ins and dangerously lower the oxygen level ...

Apparently the tunnel they were excavating is part of a new highway route. As the country keeps developing, domestic tourism has taken off, which in India means expanded access to remote pilgrimage sites. Hopefully safety standards will improve. I haven't checked recent statistics, but China used to average 11 coal miners a day dying. Right about 4000 per year circa 2015. India probably a similar shoddy record of disposable workers in the quest for profits.

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Re: 396 Ace in the Hole

#143 Post by brundlefly » Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:39 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:57 am
Not to make light of a fraught situation...

I imagine in the Indian version of the film, the trapped workers engage in an elaborate dance number to celebrate being on the verge of rescue, only to have the singing-dancing cause cave-ins and dangerously lower the oxygen level ...

Apparently the tunnel they were excavating is part of a new highway route. As the country keeps developing, domestic tourism has taken off, which in India means expanded access to remote pilgrimage sites. Hopefully safety standards will improve. I haven't checked recent statistics, but China used to average 11 coal miners a day dying. Right about 4000 per year circa 2015. India probably a similar shoddy record of disposable workers in the quest for profits.
By total coincidence, I just watched Yash Chopra's 1979 film Kaala Patthar, inspired by the 1975 Chasnala disaster wherein an explosion and flooded mine killed 375 workers.

Though the movie settles into formula, I assure you all the singing and dancing is kept above ground and pre-disaster. It is contorted to deliver a weirdly happy ending, minimizing on-screen deaths (so the film's heroes can still seem heroic) and voicing hopes about a better tomorrow, presumably by broadening nationalized industry and higher safety standards (about which there is speechifying.)

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