381 La haine

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tavernier
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#76 Post by tavernier » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:21 am

Kassovitz addresses this in his commentary in at least one instance--there's a character who has a nickname that, the director notes, is a French version of Wal-Mart, so the subtitles render the nickname as "Wal-Mart," rather than that French equivalent. (I don't remember the exact name, since I watched this a few weeks ago and I don't have the disc right now to check.)

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Antoine Doinel
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#77 Post by Antoine Doinel » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:46 pm

This subtitle boondoggle is certainly disheartening. Having not seen the movie, when I told my girlfriend who has seen the film and loved it, she was thrilled Criterion was putting out an edition as it was certainly a film she wanted in our collection. I will be holding off on that purchase for now.

Moreover, living in Quebec and having European "in-laws", I know all about Asterix & Obelix and various other European cultural references. I find it completely patronizing that the film has been ostensibly "Americanized". I agree with other members that part of what makes Criterion buyers so unique is not only their willingness to embrace, but their openmindedness, curiousity and understanding of other cultures.

I hope Criterion addresses the issue and fixes it. I also wonder if these subtitles were created at the time when Jodie Foster's production company acquired the film for American distribution? But for a company that prides itself on retaining the integrity of the films they present, this is a disapointment.

patrick
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#78 Post by patrick » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:26 pm

I just finished watching this and I'm totally blown away; what an amazing film. Brilliant performances from all the leads and amazingly assured direction from Kassovitz, I feel like I need to stew on it a bit more before I can really start digging into it.

On the subtitles, perhaps Criterion could consider doing a "cultural notes" section in the booklet in the future, instead of changing the subtitles to make them more American-centric. A small glossary of things like Asterix and Le Pen would go a long way.

I haven't dived into disc two yet but the introduction from Jodie Foster didn't do much for me. It was interesting to hear about why she liked the film and helped distribute it in the US, but I can't say I got any new information or a new perspective on anything in the film.

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#79 Post by soma » Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:26 pm

How disappointing, I would have expected more from Criterion. Not sure whether I'm keen to purchase this any longer.

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LightBulbFilm
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#80 Post by LightBulbFilm » Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:19 pm

Is Criterion *gulp* selling out?

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davebert
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#81 Post by davebert » Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:55 pm

I'm not terribly concerned so long as forum members are here to keep me on my toes. Now when I see La Haine tomorrow, I'll just mentally substitute the correct bits when I see the scenes come up, and I don't think I will have lost that much for not having the correct subs in the first place.

However, its obnoxious that a product that is priced and understood as "the definitive edition" does stuff like this, and I would love to see Criterion offer the option of multiple tracks if they want to deliteralize subs in terms of cultural content rather than the standard changing of phrases that have no literal equivalent.

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jbeall
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#82 Post by jbeall » Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:21 pm

patrick wrote:I just finished watching this and I'm totally blown away; what an amazing film. Brilliant performances from all the leads and amazingly assured direction from Kassovitz, I feel like I need to stew on it a bit more before I can really start digging into it.

On the subtitles, perhaps Criterion could consider doing a "cultural notes" section in the booklet in the future, instead of changing the subtitles to make them more American-centric. A small glossary of things like Asterix and Le Pen would go a long way.

I haven't dived into disc two yet but the introduction from Jodie Foster didn't do much for me. It was interesting to hear about why she liked the film and helped distribute it in the US, but I can't say I got any new information or a new perspective on anything in the film.
I like the idea of some footnotes or something along those lines. Actually, you don't even need a footnote for the Le Pen reference, as the liner notes mention "far-right Front National leader Jean-Marie Le Pen." Asterix would still be unexplained, but oh well, it's not central to the film anyway.

Another option would be to add this as a dvd extra, which criterion did for Band of Outsiders, explaining some of the references.

While I understand the irritation at criterion changing the subtitles (hell, I was the one who brought it up!), the film is so fantastic that I don't see it as an impediment to purchasing it. I buy criterion dvds for other reasons too, such as removable subtitles (the optimum subs are non-removable) and the liner notes and extras help flesh out the film's context. Having compared the criterion and optimum releases, I definitely prefer criterion in most instances, including occasional subtitle preferences; it makes a lot more sense to an American when Said says "have you got my dough?" instead of "have you got my lolly?".

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colinr0380
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#83 Post by colinr0380 » Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:44 pm

jbeall wrote:Asterix would still be unexplained, but oh well, it's not central to the film anyway.
Is Asterix that far beyond the ken of an American audience? They seem relatively well known in Britain. I remember my dad getting me a lot of the Asterix books as a kid and the many animated films get shown regularly on the BBC. Sadly I haven't seen the recent live action Gérard Depardieu films even though I'd like to mainly because I'm annoyed that only a dubbed version of the 'Take on Caesar' film was released (it couldn't have been that much trouble to add the original language track, even if you were thinking that your film was going to mainly cater to children? Luckily Mission Cleopatra seems to include the French track)

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jbeall
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#84 Post by jbeall » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:29 pm

colinr0380 wrote:
jbeall wrote:Asterix would still be unexplained, but oh well, it's not central to the film anyway.
Is Asterix that far beyond the ken of an American audience? They seem relatively well known in Britain.
Well, I was marginally into comics growing up, but my brother is a comic book freak, and he's not familiar with Asterix. I know Asterix from having been to Europe a few times, and also when I was taking Latin in college and reading Caesar's De bello gallico; a classmate recognized the "All Gaul is divided into three parts" line and explained the reference to an otherwise bewildered class. When I showed the optimum dvd to my students, I heard one of my students (who's half-Turkish, half-Polish, and goes to Europe frequently to visit family) explaining the reference to the students around her.

That's a long way of saying that it's unusual for an American to be familiar with Asterix, but as mentioned in earlier posts in this thread, there's likely to be a greater-than-average coincidence between criterion fans and Americans who're familiar with Asterix.

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#85 Post by peerpee » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:15 pm

Surely what matters is "what is actually said in the film"? --- Whether Americans might "put their forefingers to their chin and frown" shouldn't really be a concern... for anybody.

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arsonfilms
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#86 Post by arsonfilms » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:50 pm

I've been following the whole subtitling argument, and I'm baffled by the uproar. Sure, it's kind of a silly thing to change the specifically French concepts to more easily understandable equivalents, but please bear in mind that this is how everyone in the US and most in the UK has seen this film since it came out more than ten years ago. How do we know that the conceits aren't from the licenser? Or even the director himself in an effort to make the film's themes more universal? I'll be honest, I've spent more time overseas than easily 95% of Americans, and I've only ever heard reference to Asterix and Obelisk. Nobody ever complains about the consistent Criterion policy of translating cognac as brandy, but who the hell doesn't know what cognac is?
I appreciate the function this forum and DVDBeaver serve to encourage rigorous standards in DVD production, but to essentially boycott an incredible package and presentation of an incredible film for something so minor as culturally flexible subtitles seems ridiculous to me. I agree that it would be preferable to provide notes on the subtitles in the booklet to explain the change, or to use a more accurate translation and explain the references, but I also would have preferred four commentary tracks and a third disc of extras including Kassovitz's early shorts. I'm just glad that the movie is finally available in region 1 and that said DVD is perhaps the best package available to anyone in the world.

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HerrSchreck
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#87 Post by HerrSchreck » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:39 am

I'm actually baffled that anyone wouldn't get what people are so pissed off about. Why not change the street names to American ones, call Paris NYC, etc?

For god's sakes why not redub ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT so that all references to WW1 are erased, and the film goes off as an easy story about the Iraq war, since most young and dumb teen and twenty somethings are unfamiliar with the details with the great war?

Wiping away the cartoon character's actual names, removing LE PEN due to American unfamiliarity... cultural touchtones from the place and time in which the film was made-- since when was unfamiliarity with an onscreen element a bad thing? Since when was learning a gaffe to be papered over with pablum? Learning about the things you are hearing in a foreign film (any film) is one of it's incipient delights. It's called the Brain-Growth process, and is one of the key tenets of the mind-expansion process: you discover something new (i e a film from a land far far away), and within this universe you discover All Kinds of Things.. new actors whose careers you might want to investigate, historical events mentioned, music played, versions of human life elucidated, all of which might lead to several mini discovery processes wherein one thing leads to another and your mind grows through the exploration process. And it is the specific moment when you're confronted by something that completely confounds you-- in other words you have absolutely no idea what is under discussion onscreen-- which causes you to pick up a book, log on to the web, and learn. This is one of the very very very best best super duper whoopsy bestest best things that not only film but all the arts do for a human being: wake them out of their fog and alert them to the fact of other modes of human existence that are waiting to be investigated... or ignored at your own peril. This goes double for a film like HAINE furchrissakes. Dumbing down the subtitles in this way is virtual anti-art.

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Steven H
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#88 Post by Steven H » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:41 am

I don't understand how it could have even crossed any subtitler's mind to take a reference to a living, and in my opinion still dangerous, politician, and switch it with someone not only dead but from two generations passed. You've changed the entire meaning of the dialogue, and surely altered the filmmaker's intention beyond recognition. I'm going to give Criterion the benefit of the doubt and say maybe this falls into the "trying too hard" category.

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pro-bassoonist
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#89 Post by pro-bassoonist » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:47 am

HerrSchreck wrote:I'm actually baffled that anyone wouldn't get what people are so pissed off about. Why not change the street names to American ones, call Paris NYC, etc?

For god's sakes why not redub ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT so that all references to WW1 are erased, and the film goes off as an easy story about the Iraq war, since most young and dumb teen and twenty somethings are unfamiliar with the details with the great war?

Wiping away the cartoon character's actual names, removing LE PEN due to American unfamiliarity... cultural touchtones from the place and time in which the film was made-- since when was unfamiliarity with an onscreen element a bad thing? Since when was learning a gaffe to be papered over with pablum? Learning about the things you are hearing in a foreign film (any film) is one of it's incipient delights. It's called the Brain-Growth process, and is one of the key tenets of the mind-expansion process: you discover something new (i e a film from a land far far away), and within this universe you discover All Kinds of Things.. new actors whose careers you might want to investigate, historical events mentioned, music played, versions of human life elucidated, all of which might lead to several mini discovery processes wherein one thing leads to another and your mind grows through the exploration process. And it is the specific moment when you're confronted by something that completely confounds you-- in other words you have absolutely no idea what is under discussion onscreen-- which causes you to pick up a book, log on to the web, and learn. This is one of the very very very best best super duper whoopsy bestest best things that not only film but all the arts do for a human being: wake them out of their fog and alert them to the fact of other modes of human existence that are waiting to be investigated... or ignored at your own peril. This goes double for a film like HAINE furchrissakes. Dumbing down the subtitles in this way is virtual anti-art.
I have to agree with EVERY SINGLE WORD above...and more! Great post!

Anyone who does not understand what has happened here and why people are upset is...to put it mildly...off!

Go ahead and Americanize....Les Miserables...I am sure someone will have an easier time getting it.

Ciao,
Pro-B

lull
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#90 Post by lull » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:11 am

i agree with everyone who's pissed off about this issue. i'll let Criterion slide this time (mostly because i don't need the subs). but please, oh please, don't let it happen again. it's not that hard.

we want the original films, not americanized versions. thank you. people who are into dumbed-down movies aren't checking out Criterion or foreign films anyways. and are especially not lurking into foreign film forums to try and weed out which dvds have 'appropriately-americanized' subs for them to watch and understand (they don't watch subbed film anyways). please make this one an exception and not a new rule.

question - who bought this for the dumbed-down subs?

thank you.

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jbeall
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#91 Post by jbeall » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:46 am

HerrSchreck wrote:I'm actually baffled that anyone wouldn't get what people are so pissed off about. Why not change the street names to American ones, call Paris NYC, etc?

For god's sakes why not redub ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT so that all references to WW1 are erased, and the film goes off as an easy story about the Iraq war, since most young and dumb teen and twenty somethings are unfamiliar with the details with the great war?

Wiping away the cartoon character's actual names, removing LE PEN due to American unfamiliarity... cultural touchtones from the place and time in which the film was made-- since when was unfamiliarity with an onscreen element a bad thing? Since when was learning a gaffe to be papered over with pablum? Learning about the things you are hearing in a foreign film (any film) is one of it's incipient delights. It's called the Brain-Growth process, and is one of the key tenets of the mind-expansion process: you discover something new (i e a film from a land far far away), and within this universe you discover All Kinds of Things.. new actors whose careers you might want to investigate, historical events mentioned, music played, versions of human life elucidated, all of which might lead to several mini discovery processes wherein one thing leads to another and your mind grows through the exploration process. And it is the specific moment when you're confronted by something that completely confounds you-- in other words you have absolutely no idea what is under discussion onscreen-- which causes you to pick up a book, log on to the web, and learn. This is one of the very very very best best super duper whoopsy bestest best things that not only film but all the arts do for a human being: wake them out of their fog and alert them to the fact of other modes of human existence that are waiting to be investigated... or ignored at your own peril. This goes double for a film like HAINE furchrissakes. Dumbing down the subtitles in this way is virtual anti-art.
I have just one question, HerrSchreck: Why do you hate America? :lol:

Seriously, I agree with every word you say (and then some!). I'm a grad student in comparative literature, which stresses the necessity of learning the languages of the literatures one's... well, comparing, for just this reason. Moreover, I think you're absolutely right to react against the overall societal trend of dumbing down the dvd in order to appeal to the idiot who's wandered into the local Borders wholly by mistake.

Still, I don't regret having bought the dvd. At least it's available in this country now, and in my book the fact of La Haine's availability in the U.S., albeit an imperfect version, is still better than not.

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skuhn8
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#92 Post by skuhn8 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:59 am

I don't think a 'well, it's better than nothing' argument is going to work at this time, and certainly not at this place. This isn't some Paramount toss-off. The CC should know better. Film is more than passing entertainment: it's a document of the times. Le Pen references are vital to the milieu represented. Sure these translations will help the gangsta's that rent it cause the heard there's some wilding and crazy stoopid shit like dat. But the CC should know about the integrity of faithful representation.

And as to place...you're arguing 'well, it's better than nothing' on a forum where something as minor as windowboxing has generated some 40 pages of posts!

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Kinsayder
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#93 Post by Kinsayder » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:58 am

jbeall wrote:Having compared the criterion and optimum releases, I definitely prefer criterion in most instances, including occasional subtitle preferences; it makes a lot more sense to an American when Said says "have you got my dough?" instead of "have you got my lolly?".
No-one in England uses the word "lolly" either. At least, not in that context. And "dough" sounds like the translator has been watching too many Bogart movies. Even if we assume that Criterion's intention was to translate the Paris banlieue slang to the nearest American equivalent (New York ghetto slang?) the phrases don't ring true: "I'll slap your face"? "take a dump"? "his weenie is teeny"?

Of course, translating slang is fraught with difficulties, and an over-literal approach can be just as bad. I wonder if the best method is to convert the French phrases out of slang, and then translate to English, i.e., "Have you got my money?". It should be obvious to the viewer, particularly in a film like La Haine, that the characters are not really speaking standard French. The purpose of the subs should be to provide the meaning without imposing a false and inappropriate cultural flavour.

Needless to say, specific local references should be left untouched.

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jbeall
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#94 Post by jbeall » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:24 pm

skuhn8 wrote:I don't think a 'well, it's better than nothing' argument is going to work at this time, and certainly not at this place. This isn't some Paramount toss-off. The CC should know better. Film is more than passing entertainment: it's a document of the times. Le Pen references are vital to the milieu represented. Sure these translations will help the gangsta's that rent it cause the heard there's some wilding and crazy stoopid shit like dat. But the CC should know about the integrity of faithful representation.

And as to place...you're arguing 'well, it's better than nothing' on a forum where something as minor as windowboxing has generated some 40 pages of posts!
Perhaps the argument doesn't fly on these boards, but we're also a bunch of snobs. However, I've been showing this film to my classes for three semesters, and overall, I think the criterion subs are more accessible to my 18-y-o undergrads.

Is this subtitle issue a glaring mistake for Criterion? Of course; I'm the one who brought it up!! I wouldn't have taken the time to post it here unless I found it problematic. My only point was that having weighed the pluses and minuses of this release, I still come down strongly in favor of criterion's edition. Translation is a tricky issue in even the most straightforward of texts/films/etc., so I'm not going to let this one ruin my enjoyment of the film.

This does mean that I have to pause the film when I show it to my class in order to explain the Le Pen reference, but I already did that anyway, as my undergrads are self-centered and ignorant of what goes on beyond our borders (in their defense, they're only 18, but still...). And the Asterix reference isn't important enough for me to explain; they either get that one or they don't.

This does make me wonder, however, who does the subtitling for Criterion releases, specifically this one. The booklet says that the subtitles were done by "John Gudelj/Subtext Subtitling", so I'm wondering

a) if the criterion producers were even aware of this problem,
b) if this company has done the subs on other criterion releases, and if so
c) have they committed similar gaffes on those releases
d) how much oversight Becker, Turell, et al. maintain over these issues. I guess it depends on how fluent they are in French (since they can presumably speak French at least a bit).

And the next thing to do is write Criterion to complain. I doubt that'll change much, but they should be aware that there's some dissatisfaction with this issue. I'd rather avoid clicking the 'report a problem' link on their site, as I have no idea to whom that email goes. Any suggestions?

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Baron_Blood
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#95 Post by Baron_Blood » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:33 am

My sister's cop boyfriend recently saw and loved La Haine. He never watches foreign films. He was also really shocked that he would actually like something not in the english language. I've personally never seen it. However, I imagine if he liked it that much, it can't be worth my time in watching, seriously.

lull
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#96 Post by lull » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:53 am

Baron_Blood wrote:I've personally never seen it. However, I imagine if he liked it that much, it can't be worth my time in watching, seriously.
lol. are you for real?

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indiannamednobody
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#97 Post by indiannamednobody » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:58 pm

I think thats what the 'seriously' stood for.

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jon
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#98 Post by jon » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:03 pm

How is the subtitle translation on the HD-DVD?

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Doctor Sunshine
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#99 Post by Doctor Sunshine » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:40 pm

A point on the subtitles, this is a director-approved edition so he will have been aware of the changes. That said, I'm not totally on board with the them but, really, these are not sophisticated kids, they weren't trying to make any political statement with Le Pen, they were just trying to get a rise out of the skinheads, any name would do. And down with Le Pen has less snap than fuck Hitler, even if they're both pretty generic jeers. Snoopy v. Asterix I have a very hard time caring about. Subtitles are a part of the viewing experience but they're just viewing aids not a part of the film, as soon as we're aware of this, and assuming we'll all remember this information, it becomes irrelevant. From the small number of illustrations here the Criterion version's dialog seems more natural than the Optimum. Anyway, I don't think this is something we'll have to worry about, Criterion's always been very delicate with cultural minutia and if Kassovitz can live with it, so can I.

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Antoine Doinel
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#100 Post by Antoine Doinel » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:14 pm

I understand your position Doctor Sunshine, but the problem I have is that these kids are operating in the ghetto of France, not America. As such, shouldn't their cultural and political references reflect those of their immediate surroundings?

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